D&D 4th edition rules and what we can learn from them...

[deleriad]

To get back on topic...
What D&D4e seems to be trying to do is to emphasise the "game" element in role-playing game. So, in combat, there are attempts to define various rules and actions. It strikes me that a D&D4e combat (and I say this is an outsider) is most analogous to a game of American Football. The players attempt to execute various moves based on their characters' roles and abilities and the GM opposes them with a NPC team. A "good" combat encounter is probably one in which the teams are "evenly matched" but the players prevail, narrowly, through clever use of tactics.

Thus, a D&D combat could be resolved without any "role-playing" if the players were so minded. Indeed, where the roleplaying comes in depends on the players. For example, a player might decide that their Paladin refuses to carry out the obviously "correct" action because some leering orc has just insulted his god and must be smote. I think what WotC has decided is that you can't enforce roleplaying. Rather you provide the game and let the players decide how much to roleplay. This is probably the correct decision.

Thing is, this has nothing to do with the D&D system as such, you could make exactly the same decisions with BRP. All you need to do are to define the rules and actions so that you can play it as a game. What the D&D designers seem to be doing is defining the rules so that they can be programmed into a computer and trying to analyse what it is that is enjoyable about playing D&D as a game. I think that's really quite interesting in a Windows Vista kind of way.

[Trifletraxor]

They are probably making a good buisness move with this. With D&D the RPG, the card game, the miniature game and MMORPG/computer game, they can take even a bigger bite of the cake.

SGL.

[aknaton]

I got my 'Keep on the Shadowfell' adventure today.

My first impression is that they have succeeded in their intentions in doing it more like a tabletop game, that the players should always feel that they have something to do and that playing should be fun and not a chore. Kudos to them. But it may certainly not be everybody's cup of tea. But the guys and gals at Wizards seem to be professionals ;-)

This is said after flipping through the adventure and reading all of the quick start rules.

/aknaton

[Enpeze]

Regarding 4e I would like to add:

Why does anybody here think this game is a roleplaying game? Is Advanced Heroquest a role playing game? If you think that AHQ is one then maybe 4e is one for you too. But for all those who are opposed to such a thinking, I can assure you that 4e is farther away to be real roleplaying game than any of the previous editions. And those have already been the antithesis to a good roleplaying ruleset.

The first 4e module "H1 Keep on the Shadowfell" is centered fully around combat. About 10p out of 64 are explaining NPCs and a little village in the borderlands. And on the remaining - 54p - you find 24 detailed combat map setups and 140 monster stat blocks, nothing else. Is this a roleplaying game? If anybody here says "yes this is a rpg", he should immediately make a SAN roll.

But I love 4e. I play it as skirmish game and NOT as roleplaying game. This means I play with plastic miniatures and battlemaps and without acting or portraying much the characters. For us its a funny shining board game with alot of videogame influence, great tactical rules, bashing plastic monsters and leveling up. Deep immersive rpg? no thanks. If I want this, I play BRP.

I am so glad that they went the way in direction mini game. The presentation of this game is so much more honest, than say 3.5 or AD&D. No more idiotic fluff which claims to be "roleplaying". (and is of course none) You have healing surges which every toon can use during combat to get 25% of his HP back. Every toon (not only clerics) can even heal hitpoints between combats up to full, which lasts only 5min. Every 6h you can make an "extended rest" where you go back to start and regenerate ALL damage of the day (regardless how bad you have been hurt) and all daily powers and spells. Its great for bashing monsters and pushing plastic minis around in a tactical fashion.

To the TO. Learning for BRP? What? Nobody can learn anything for his BRP roleplaying game from 4e. But you can safely play it as mini game and have alot of fun.

[Skunkape]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Regarding 4e I would like to add:

Why does anybody here think this game is a roleplaying game? Is Advanced Heroquest a role playing game? If you think that AHQ is one then maybe 4e is one for you too. But for all those who are opposed to such a thinking, I can assure you that 4e is farther away to be real roleplaying game than any of the previous editions. And those have already been the antithesis to a good roleplaying ruleset.

So what you're saying is it's a roll-playing game?!

I'm still pretty sure all I'll do is look over the rules in my FLGS and if I see anything I feel will help my BRP game, I'll use that as a house rule, but I'm leaning more and more to not buying it every day. I think if I really want to learn about the game, I'll find someone who's running it and just play, borrowing people's rules to find out the things about the game I really want to find out about.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Regarding 4e I would like to add:

Why does anybody here think this game is a roleplaying game? Is Advanced Heroquest a role playing game? If you think that AHQ is one then maybe 4e is one for you too. But for all those who are opposed to such a thinking, I can assure you that 4e is farther away to be real roleplaying game than any of the previous editions. And those have already been the antithesis to a good roleplaying ruleset.

Yes, yes, we know, a game focused on combat and adventuring isn't a roleplaying game.

You know, trying to stake out the term "roleplaying games" for only those systems one approves of is an old tactic; I was seeing it at least as far back as 1985.

D&D, even D&D4, is as much a roleplaying game as any on the market; roleplaying games are defined by the degree to which you control your character design and development, and the freedom you have to play them as your vision dictates within the mechanics. Any attempt to define it finer down that that would exclude most games on the market--including, I might add, BRP.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Yes, yes, we know, a game focused on combat and adventuring isn't a roleplaying game.

You know, trying to stake out the term "roleplaying games" for only those systems one approves of is an old tactic; I was seeing it at least as far back as 1985.

D&D, even D&D4, is as much a roleplaying game as any on the market; roleplaying games are defined by the degree to which you control your character design and development, and the freedom you have to play them as your vision dictates within the mechanics. Any attempt to define it finer down that that would exclude most games on the market--including, I might add, BRP.

Just because a game labels itsself as "roleplaying game" it does not mean that it is one. And just because a game allows for "character design" and "developement" it does not mean that it is a roleplaying game at all. Advanced Heroquest, Avalon Hills Magic Realm and many other mini-, board and skirmish games have "character design and development" too. I mean the game company put even a sticker on the AHQ box labeled "3D Roleplaying". Maybe for you all these games are roleplaying games?



Face it, some few rulesets are good for roleplaying (BRP), most are very poor (like D&D3.5) and some are not suited at all. (like D&D4e)

[sladethesniper]

Ah, but was it FUN? I love BRP as a game, but having played with some complete buffoons, the system does not guarantee a fun game. Likewise I have played exceptionally fun games using D20, Palladium games wonky rules, etc.

Granted, some systems make the fun easier/harder...but it the game master, fellow players and the adventure that make the GAME fun or not, the rules set can hinder or help, but claiming that 4E is an abomination of gaming and will doom all who play it is a bit disingenious...I am positive that there are some very good DM's out there that will have great and fantastic games using it, just as I am sure that there were people who had fun playing Phoenix Command in the early 90's (or not...it was the hardest and most unfriendly gaming system I've ever seen).

With that said, I won't be running any games in 4E, but I am sure that I will play in several games using it, and after the learning curve levels off, I may even have fun during it.

I am still a hardcore BRP fan, but bashing a system is rather pointless...a GM's skill and ability to craft a fun story is far more important.

-STS

[Skunkape]

Originally Posted by sladethesniper

...a GM's skill and ability to craft a fun story is far more important.

-STS

Plus player ability has a lot to do with making the game fun as well. Remember, our game play is all about a group effort and if the group doesn't make the game fun, then the game won't be fun.

As far as role-play vs roll-play, the ability to do that is entirely in the hands of the group as well. Personally, I've never liked level based systems, though I have pulled things from those systems in the past and have even run 2 3.5 campaigns, very successful campaigns at that.

I never have to worry about needing players and when we've had players leave the group due to real life issues, I've always been able to replace them at a moments notice. I've even had too many players on occasion, I prefer to run only 6 players at my games.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll be able to look at 4th edition and get what we want out of it, but each person's mileage will vary.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Just because a game labels itsself as "roleplaying game" it does not mean that it is one. And just because a game allows for "character design" and "developement" it does not mean that it is a roleplaying game at all. Advanced Heroquest, Avalon Hills Magic Realm and many other mini-, board and skirmish games have "character design and development" too. I mean the game company put even a sticker on the AHQ box labeled "3D Roleplaying". Maybe for you all these games are roleplaying games?

Character design and development and free choice of how you play your character. I said that's the core and I meant it. If those games fit that, then yes, they are roleplaying games and you can roll your eyes all you want.

Face it, some few rulesets are good for roleplaying (BRP), most are very poor (like D&D3.5) and some are not suited at all. (like D&D4e)

Utter nonsense. Roleplaying is primarily about the people involved and what they're doing with it. Some rulesets can make it easier or harder, but only to mild degrees, and none that fit the criteria I quoted make it impossible.