Alternative 'crunchy' design systems for BRP

[The Tweaker]

I will start with a quote from Joseph Paul, taken from this thread:

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Why do you think so? I mean I can understand if some fans do not want to do that kind of work and are willing to fudge just what the capabilities of vehicles, and equipment are but there are others that would love to get down to business and work out reasonable (or outrageous) technological progress for different civilisations both past and future.

Fortunately, there are a lot of design systems out there which should be easy to adapt to BRP, so we don't need to clutter the new book with one.

I would recommend using EABA's Stuff! by BTRC, which provides a set of very interesting and not-too-difficult-to-use systems for designing weapons and vehicles of any kind, creatures, gadgets and even entire civilizations. I think it is absolutely superior in every respect to GURPS Vehicles and most other such systems in the market. As the final results are easy to translate into real-world terms, they should be as easy to translate into BRP

Other system which should be easily compatible, according to their author, are the weapon, starship and vehicle design supplements for Flying Mice's sci-fi games (Starcluster, FTL Now and Cold Space). Their engine also seems to use percentile number as its main mechanic, but I know little more about them.

So... any other suggestions?

[Triff]

For sci-fi, Cthluhlu Rising could be a nice supplement. And that's BRP allready, with just a tiny taste of CoC.

Sverre.

[badcat]

GDW, specifically Dark Conspiracy and Twilight 2000. Also Space 1889. The first two use a D10 or D20 resolution, roll under. And loads of vehicle designs and statistics, as well as weapons.

[The Tweaker]

Originally Posted by Triff

For sci-fi, Cthluhlu Rising could be a nice supplement. And that's BRP allready, with just a tiny taste of CoC.

Sverre.

You are right, Sverre. I forgot about that one. A very cool CoC/hard sci-fi project. I liked the descriptions of gear, vehicles and starships. That, and End Times.

[Joseph Paul]

It looks like people are seeing two different models here.

One is the make it from the ground up model whicj includes things like Tweaker's suggestion of EABA's Stuff and Flying Mices design supplements. Other things that would fall into that category are The GURPS vehicle design books, HEROs vehicle design books, BTRC's VDS book, and the various iterations of Traveller's design sequences.

The other is the Rip and Convert model. Find a game that has the stuff you want in it and convert the stats to your game.

The former gives you control over what you create - it is just right. The latter allows you to use all of the previously published gearhead stuff for your game with out having to wade through real world stats. The problem of course is jiggering together the formula that tells you what a T:2000 pennetration rating should equate to in BRP or how much 20 centimeters of Traveller bonded superdense stops.

Any gearheads want to take a crack at providing conversion (how to) info on the BRP Wiki?

Joseph Paul

[Atgxtg]

I used to do a lot of conversions. I might take a crack at it.

Personally, I think the EABA/stuff! thing would be the way to go. BRTC'S 3G and VDS systems are probably the best/most accurate design rules out there and Stuff was based on those, but simplified. In effect we get a nice compromise between crunch and simplicity of play. You can pretty much design a tank, gun, etc in a couple of minutes. Then if you desire you can use the optional rules to fine tune your design.

I7ll pull out CoC and try to get a correclation between weapon damages. Should be able to do the same with stats. Just have to TIE EABA7s doubling scale to RQ/BRPS (assuming they are still using the +8 SIZ per doubling in BRP).

[Joseph Paul]

Atgxtg- When I did that recently I found that CoC pistol damage was way overrated and that there were other anomalous figures. I would be interested in seeing your results as a check on my own.

"+8 SIZ per doubling in BRP" What does this refer to?

Joseph Paul

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Atgxtg- When I did that recently I found that CoC pistol damage was way overrated and that there were other anomalous figures. I would be interested in seeing your results as a check on my own.

"+8 SIZ per doubling in BRP" What does this refer to?

Joseph Paul

Pistol damage might be overrated. It also depends on what edtion of CoC you use, too. I once started working on a correlation between CoC/RQ weapon damages and 3G, the weapon design system for BTRC products (Stuff! weapon rules were developed from it). The neat thing about 3G is that you can take real world data, plug it into the formulas and get rather decent game stats.

In fact, if I just converted the 3G weapon ratings over to BRP most weapons and pistols would be within a die size or two (d8,d6, etc). The tricky part would be working out the scale BRP uses for rifles and heavier weapons. 3G is better than Stuff! for this sort of thing, but Stuff! is much simpler.

One key thing about most weapon stats is that few games use (or should use) a linear formula for determining damage. Most RPGs use some sort of scaling system for weapons and armor, fso a direct linear conversion gives ridiculous results. Especially when location makes such a bit difference in the effects of a hit.


The +8 SIZ doubling comment refers to the SIZ chart from RQ3, and I think the one for CoC ,too. For every doubling of the mass, SIZ goes up by 8, at least for the bulk of the table. That would help in working up SIZ scores for mecha and such. In EABA an improvement of +2 or +3 is a doubling of a value (twice as much mass, twice the speed, twice the distance). So if I can work out the ratio (like +2 mass in EABA is worth +8 SIZ in BRP, for x4 ratio) then conversion gets easier.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Atgxtg- When I did that recently I found that CoC pistol damage was way overrated and that there were other anomalous figures. I would be interested in seeing your results as a check on my own.

"+8 SIZ per doubling in BRP" What does this refer to?

Joseph Paul

How so? As it is it is impossible for a low caliber handgun to kill a moderate sized person, and even a moderate handgun cannot kill a decent sized person easily. Only the .45 and up have a real shot at it, and often require an impale.

The BTRC stuff seems to based on energy alone, which is a very flawed way of translating real world guns to Damage in a game, especially HP based games.

The damage roll is a result of two things, an abstraction of the weapons capabilities to damage a person or thing, and the location of the hit - which is not affected by energy at all. A shot to the heart or brain with a .22 probably as bad as one with a .45.

Second, higher velocity rounds often easily penetrate targets and so only transfer a part of their energy to the target, while a slower round may not penetrate, and so ALL of it's energy is absorbed by the target. I see BTRC rates a 9mm higher than a .45 (because of it's higher velocity) - but the 9mm is more likely to go through the target, while the slower, bigger .45 is more likely to transfer more or even all of it's energy to the target.

That is the principle behind Armor Piercing rounds and soft lead or hollow point rounds. Armor Piercing rounds are made of very hard material and teflon* coated and designed for maximum penetration of body armor - but they tend to make neat little holes in soft targets, while a lead or hollow point is designed to NOT go through a soft target, but to expand, fragment, and generally cause as much tissue damage as possible while transferring all of their energy to the target - but they tend to just splat against armored targets. The important thing that two rounds are going to travel at the same velocity and have pretty much the same mass - so the energy will be practically identical, while the damage will be very different.

*The teflon is actually not to aid penetration - a bonus cookie to anyone who knows why AP rounds are teflon coated.

[Atgxtg]

Rurik,
Actually you can inflict a lethal wound with any weapon. It is just a question of how fast it takes to kill the guy, and if they are incapacitated or not. That is what I loved about TIMELORDS and CORPS.

THe problem is that most RPGs tend to focus sorly on enegy/power rather than placement. A .25 ACP round through the Eye is a lot more damaging than a .50 cal round round through you left pinky (unless said piky is in fromnt of the rest of you).

The 9mm/45ACP argument is way to complex for BRP. While I agree with you about over penetration, there is aslo the fact that even if a weapon transfers all of it energy, it doesn't mean that much it it is spread over to large an area. Most rifle round will overpenetrate a human body but still inflict more damage on the way through than slower mocving rounds.