Firearm-rules in BRP

[Atgxtg]

There are several games that handle it well, just that BRP was more SCA based. The damage die tends to make a large caliber weapon in unskilled hands more deadly than a small caliber weapon in the hands of someone who can really use it. Stun/Shock and delayed fatalities help with this.

It all stems from damage being listed in "points". In the real world, any weapon can kill you, justhat is is easier to do it with some than with others. With a Hit point system, it is all based on if your weapon can do enough points of damage or not.

Take a look at knives and daggers. In most RPGs they are a joke, and tend to be only slighly more damaging than a punch. In the real world you can cut someone's throat or stab them through the heart.

[badcat]

In the light of rpgs, though, I think the real question is...how far do you want to go to simulate reality? and how important is it, really?

For instance, up to a point, it has been proven that bullet design changes the order of deadliness a great deal. Hence the .357, so very deadly with its 125 JHP bullets. Probably the deadliest of all handgun bullets, in that particular caliber and at 1200+ fps... but not so in a loading of much less velocity (and loaded much hotter it gets very unpleasant to shoot) and certainly not in the base caliber, the 38. Real world ammunition made by Cor-Bon is an entirely different proposition than the same caliber made by Remington, for instance. Do some research, up to and including shooting the same caliber with both loads, you'll see what I mean. I had a .45 Colt that I could shoot all day at around 800 fps, but with Cor-Bon loaded up to 1100+ fps, uh-uh. One box was usually quite enough. In an rpg, taking all the different dynamics (recoil, flash, noise, damage capacity, penetration, range, trajectory, wear , leading, etc.) into account just is not worth the trouble, IMO. Talk about endless weapon stat charts! That is why I am quite happy with BRP stats as they are.

[drohem]

I agree with you Badcat. The hit point/weapon damage system is an abstraction; not a simulation. A good friend of mine got hold of an anatomy book when we were playing RQ3 exclusively. He created this incrediably detailed combat system based upon damage to organs, etc. I took a look at it and said it was beautiful, but I would never use or play in his game if he used it, LOL.

[badcat]

Like 'Aftermath'? Or that new fantasy rpg, 'Metal, Magic, and Lore'? That last one has a positive review at rpg.net, but when I looked at the website, the character sheet has a hit location chart that looks like the old butcher chart that shows the different cuts' location on the cow... 'I hit him in the loin, Joe'...'yeah, I bet that hurt, Fred'. I stopped right there.

[SDLeary]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

If you were going to do that, you'd need to do it for more than guns; almost all piercing weapons are dependent on location for a lot of their damage; its virtually as true of an arrow or an epee as it is of a bullet.

Not quite so. Once a bullet enters, a crap load internal damage can be done. Take a block of ballistic gel. Shoot it with an arrow, stab it with an epee, and shoot it with both a pistol and rilfe. The patterns for the firearms will probably be much much more violent. Thats what happens inside a body.

Now if you wiggle the epee or spear around while inside the wound...

SDLeary

[Simlasa]

Originally Posted by SDLeary

Not quite so.

I think he was just saying that damage/hit location matters to some extent for every weapon... not that they did the same damage.

As the proud owner of a big stack of Phoenix Command books (and having actually played games with them on a few occasions) I agree with Badcat... it's plausibility vs. playability every time. I think the stats in BRP are sufficiently believable and very playable... and I can't think of any modern game that didn't get arguments from some gun enthusiasts saying it was inaccurate... even Phoenix Command.

[SDLeary]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I think he was just saying that damage/hit location matters to some extent for every weapon... not that they did the same damage.

As the proud owner of a big stack of Phoenix Command books (and having actually played games with them on a few occasions) I agree with Badcat... it's plausibility vs. playability every time. I think the stats in BRP are sufficiently believable and very playable... and I can't think of any modern game that didn't get arguments from some gun enthusiasts saying it was inaccurate... even Phoenix Command.

Yes! I see that now! Sorry Nightshade!

Dayum coffee should have kicked in sooner

SDLeary

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

THe big difficulty with firearms in most RPGs, including BRP is the variable damage. In realisty firearms tend to make smaller wounds than swords and axes, but are still lethal becuase of wound placement. With a variable damage roll (1D10, 2D8, etc.) the damage done is more a factor of how well you roll on the damage die than how well you place the bullet (skill).

I always assumed that the more damage you rolled, the better-placed the hit was. In my book, a Special didn't necessarily do extra damage because it had a lot of oomph behind it, but because it hit you somewhere nasty.

Yes, I know that specials have to overcome armour, so it does fall down there a bit. But in my own little world it makes sense and that's what's important.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by badcat

Like 'Aftermath'? Or that new fantasy rpg, 'Metal, Magic, and Lore'? That last one has a positive review at rpg.net, but when I looked at the website, the character sheet has a hit location chart that looks like the old butcher chart that shows the different cuts' location on the cow... 'I hit him in the loin, Joe'...'yeah, I bet that hurt, Fred'. I stopped right there.

Aftermath was not actually the mechanical nightmare it has a reputation for; it sometimes went to more trouble than was useful (the 30 hit locations, for example, only really mattered for armor placement on the majority of hits), but in the end, it was only modestly more complex than RQ3.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by SDLeary

Not quite so. Once a bullet enters, a crap load internal damage can be done. Take a block of ballistic gel. Shoot it with an arrow, stab it with an epee, and shoot it with both a pistol and rilfe. The patterns for the firearms will probably be much much more violent. Thats what happens inside a body.

That turns out not to be quite as true as was once thought, though; look up "elastic cavity" (if I'm remembering the term correctly) if you want to see some discussion of this. Turns out that a lot of the cavitation is transient and doesn't mean as much as they thought.

That doesn't make your point entirely invalid, but I just wanted to note that ballistic gel is actually a bit deceptive here, as it doesn't show the difference between transient and permanent cavitation.