Firearm-rules in BRP

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Aftermath was not actually the mechanical nightmare it has a reputation for; it sometimes went to more trouble than was useful (the 30 hit locations, for example, only really mattered for armor placement on the majority of hits), but in the end, it was only modestly more complex than RQ3.

Must be those flowcharts that give it such a nasty rep.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Must be those flowcharts that give it such a nasty rep.

Probably. Character gen could be a bit of a chore until you got used to it, but the amount of die rolling and chart looking in play wasn't any worse than RQ. The BAP system was a bit annoying on grounds of micromanaging movement and actions, but that was pretty much true of RQ3 strike ranks, too, and it had a bit less problem there if anything.

[soltakss]

We spent two or three evenings rolling up characters for Aftermath, played it for one session and then gave up entirely.

It was too complex and we had no feeling for how good we were, what we were rolling for or anything else.

Half of us had played RQ/CoC and all of us had played D&D, so we had experienced other systems.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

That turns out not to be quite as true as was once thought, though; look up "elastic cavity" (if I'm remembering the term correctly) if you want to see some discussion of this. Turns out that a lot of the cavitation is transient and doesn't mean as much as they thought.

That doesn't make your point entirely invalid, but I just wanted to note that ballistic gel is actually a bit deceptive here, as it doesn't show the difference between transient and permanent cavitation.

Particularly for pistols this is true. The temporary cavitation is formed by stretching the tissues of the body. With pistol ammo the forces are to low to turn a stretch into a tear or destruction of tissue as can happen with higher powered rifle ammo.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by badcat

In the light of rpgs, though, I think the real question is...how far do you want to go to simulate reality? and how important is it, really?

I'd say it depends on just what sort of style of gaming you are aiming for. A lot of people who I gamed with who play D&D were quite shocked by how deadly combat is in RQ. I had one group practically going into shock when one guy actually lost an arm. Some poeple like hit locations, other's don't.

Likewise if you are shooting for (sorry couldn't resist) a style of play that models reality better, then a little more detail is fine. In fightfights, things like "stopping power" and suppression fire play a factor. They just don't in BRP.

Now for CoC that's no biggie, as most of what you can shoot at tends to be bullet resistant anyway. But, for BRP to be used to play in other genres then problems will pop up. For instance, the ability to take out a sentry with a sneak attack with a dagger is important for certain modern day types of adventures. If you can't do it in the game, it's a problem.

It is all a trade off between what you want to do, and how much you are willing to pay for it. I've played and liked both simple/abstract RPGs and complex/realistic ones. It depends on what you want to do with it. If reality doesn't make much difference and isn't important for an RPG you can go with D20 Modern.

CoC combat rules are pretty weak in general (IMO the worst version of BRP. The goal of the game is what, survive long enough to go insane? Practically everything is immune to most weapons anyway, so the combat rules are almost unnecessary).

Sure, loading makes a difference. But the standard damages should be based on the standard ball round. Otherwise the whole damage chart is sort of pointless. I can think of some loadings for 9mm that give it stopping power comparable to a standard .44 magnum round. But I don't expect to see the 9mm listd in the book with the same stats as a .44M. My problem with the 5th edition COC chart is that it out of whack. THe .38 does the same damage as the 9mm, when it shouldn't (a .38 caliber round is actually a shorter, 9mm round with less power, the .38 SPECIAL is the one that is close to a regual 9mm and the ne that is usuable in a .357mag); and the .44M is performace wise too close to the 5.56 and 7.62 rifle rounds.


As a side note, I'd agrue against the .357M. Basically it's a 9mm (.357 vs .355) with a lot more power, so much so that it tends to overpenetrate, injuring or killing bystanders. That is why is is no longer the wondergun among the police that it used to be.

As for what is easier to shoot mutiple times, so what? If we were running "Gun Range the Role-Playing Game" that might be a factor, but as far as a firefight goes it doesn't make a difference (well, I suppse it might for the D20 crowd. They might need a second box of ammo to get through all those hit points).

[Atgxtg]

I7ve played AFTERMATH too.
Yeah, it was a bit complex. Even wrose was the way the boooks were organized. There were lots of sepcial case rules that yo really had to hunt for to use. THe game love of using it'S own technical jargon, and hiding most items behind some sort of identifcation code didn't help.

But, if the GM was really up on the rules, it could play fairly well and fast. THe GM really had to but up on the rules though, or it could bog down. It had a couple of things that I wish RQ had (like the different hit location tables you used depending on how you were fighting, so guys with shields tended to get hit on the shield side more, while guys fighting with rapiers took more hits on the leading arm and leg)

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Likewise if you are shooting for (sorry couldn't resist) a style of play that models reality better, then a little more detail is fine. In fightfights, things like "stopping power" and suppression fire play a factor. They just don't in BRP.

What do you think what a character in BRP does if he looses half of his HP? Making a CON roll or fall down. This is enough to simulate "stopping power". Additionally creating one or two additional rules should be solve the problem for those who like it more complex.
And suppression comes automatically if you fire fast shots against a target, provided it is sane enough to duck and cover immediately.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Now for CoC that's no biggie, as most of what you can shoot at tends to be bullet resistant anyway.

Not in my games. Maybe this is because I dont normally use CoC monster extensively. (rather humans as opponents) Additionally there is not much combat in my CoC games. Players tend to avoid combat because they know it could be very nasty and deadly to them. Its more an investigate the secrets of supernatural, dark mood game.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

But, for BRP to be used to play in other genres then problems will pop up. For instance, the ability to take out a sentry with a sneak attack with a dagger is important for certain modern day types of adventures. If you can't do it in the game, it's a problem.

Yeah in this I agree with you. I resolved this problem with a small house rule (a skill called "assassination (05%)".

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

It is all a trade off between what you want to do, and how much you are willing to pay for it. I've played and liked both simple/abstract RPGs and complex/realistic ones. It depends on what you want to do with it. If reality doesn't make much difference and isn't important for an RPG you can go with D20 Modern.

No. CoC is much more realistic than d20. Alone to have such thoughts is a crime. Beware of the BRP-police.
Obviously you think that realism comes only with rule complexity. But as far as I know this is in only one exceptional case true. And this exception is Gurps. It seems Gurps is the system of choice for the atgxtg in you who likes complex games.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

CoC combat rules are pretty weak in general (IMO the worst version of BRP. The goal of the game is what, survive long enough to go insane? Practically everything is immune to most weapons anyway, so the combat rules are almost unnecessary).

You said above that it all depends on playing style, no? So why do you think that everybody employs a playing style of "surviving long enough to go insane"?

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Sure, loading makes a difference. But the standard damages should be based on the standard ball round. Otherwise the whole damage chart is sort of pointless. I can think of some loadings for 9mm that give it stopping power comparable to a standard .44 magnum round. But I don't expect to see the 9mm listd in the book with the same stats as a .44M. My problem with the 5th edition COC chart is that it out of whack. THe .38 does the same damage as the 9mm, when it shouldn't (a .38 caliber round is actually a shorter, 9mm round with less power, the .38 SPECIAL is the one that is close to a regual 9mm and the ne that is usuable in a .357mag); and the .44M is performace wise too close to the 5.56 and 7.62 rifle rounds.

This is too "gun-nerdy" for me. In my other modern games I didnt even distinguish between the different calibers. Only light and heavy pistols. Worked perfectly for our group.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by soltakss

We spent two or three evenings rolling up characters for Aftermath, played it for one session and then gave up entirely.

It was too complex and we had no feeling for how good we were, what we were rolling for or anything else.

Half of us had played RQ/CoC and all of us had played D&D, so we had experienced other systems.

I accept that what you say was true for your group, but there were several local Aftermath games for a while, and no one seemed to have more trouble with them than they had with other local game systems; in particularly, the couple people who did often had trouble with strike ranks or other elements of RQ, too.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I7ve played AFTERMATH too.
Yeah, it was a bit complex. Even wrose was the way the boooks were organized. There were lots of sepcial case rules that yo really had to hunt for to use. THe game love of using it'S own technical jargon, and hiding most items behind some sort of identifcation code didn't help.

That was a common problem in general with FGI games of the period, and its quite true.

But, if the GM was really up on the rules, it could play fairly well and fast. THe GM really had to but up on the rules though, or it could bog down. It had a couple of things that I wish RQ had (like the different hit location tables you used depending on how you were fighting, so guys with shields tended to get hit on the shield side more, while guys fighting with rapiers took more hits on the leading arm and leg)

It'd be easy enough to prepare them; after all, its no more complex in principal than the separate ranged and melee hit location tables RQ3 used (though doing it for every shape would be a pain; in Aftermath, the majority of opponents were other humans so you could afford a few special cases easier).

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

What do you think what a character in BRP does if he looses half of his HP? Making a CON roll or fall down. This is enough to simulate "stopping power". Additionally creating one or two additional rules should be solve the problem for those who like it more complex.
And suppression comes automatically if you fire fast shots against a target, provided it is sane enough to duck and cover immediately.

Not all version of BRP have this sort of rule. Stormbringer7s Major Wound might be the best. But, even with such a rule, in many cases the way damage works means than some weapons are not going to be able to do half someone's HP.

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Not in my games. Maybe this is because I dont normally use CoC monster extensively. (rather humans as opponents) Additionally there is not much combat in my CoC games. Players tend to avoid combat because they know it could be very nasty and deadly to them. Its more an investigate the secrets of supernatural, dark mood game.

Maybe , but that sort of makes you CoC campaigns an exception. Most CoC games I've played in and all the published adventures I've read use the Mythos monsters. I did enjoy one exception when a local GM ran an adventres based around gansters that threw us for a loop. We were expecting Mi-Go and ended up facing bootleggers with Tommy Guns.

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Yeah in this I agree with you. I resolved this problem with a small house rule (a skill called "assassination (05%)".

One way to go. BTW, does that work against PCs or is there some sort of save/resistance?

Originally Posted by Enpeze

No. CoC is much more realistic than d20. Alone to have such thoughts is a crime. Beware of the BRP-police.

Not really. Any game with Cthulhu, Deep Ones, etc isn't realistic. The underlying BRP mechanics are more realistic than d20, but it really don't play much of a factor for that sort of setting.

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Obviously you think that realism comes only with rule complexity. But as far as I know this is in only one exceptional case true. And this exception is Gurps. It seems Gurps is the system of choice for the atgxtg in you who likes complex games.

Name a realistic RPG that doesn't have some degree of rle complexity.
Please don't imply that GURPS is my game of choice, it isn't. IMO GURPS does more things wrong than it does right (1pt knife damage, the inability to defend youself with a weapon without a superhigh skill or armor). I7d take Timelords, CORPS, HARNMASTER or a bunch of other before GURPS.

Originally Posted by Enpeze

You said above that it all depends on playing style, no? So why do you think that everybody employs a playing style of "surviving long enough to go insane"?

Because I've yet to see published CoC products that promote any other sort of adventure. Yes, you can take CoC throw out all the mythos stuff, and use it for something else, but that isn't what's been published. Admittedly CoC is my least favorite Chaosium RPG.

Originally Posted by Enpeze

This is too "gun-nerdy" for me. In my other modern games I didnt even distinguish between the different calibers. Only light and heavy pistols. Worked perfectly for our group.

Again it depends one what sort of campaign. I think I prefer a "medium" caqtegory just to dintinquish between the typical pistol that most people, law enforcement, etc carry and a hold-out gun like a derrigner.

But in some games and gneres, it can be important and worth differntiaing. For CoC Light/heavy is fine. For, say a James Bond style episonage game, a modern warfare game, or a Old West campaign, a bit more detail really helps.