Shaman spells, spirit combat

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

We have reasonable downtime - one or two adventures (long multi-sessions each) per game year in general, but there are seasons between adventures generally.

Just as a note, I suspect even among RQ players you'd find a three month chunk of downtime exceeds what the vast majority of them provide, so I think I'll stick to the term "large amounts".

However, that's not what made the shaman so powerful. What really did it was the ability to contact and negotiate with friendly spirits to do things for him: spirits that are beyond his ability to bind or command with any

But its of a piece; that all takes time, and its time that often simply isn't available. That was rather my point; this is only helpful if there's usually time to find and apply the spirits you need to the job, and where the kinds of problems you have permit that sort of time.

Also, SDLeary is correct in that even the held/forced spirits are generally much more due to building binding enchantment and holding the spirit there rather than in the fetch. Holding spirits in the fetch isn't particularly economical in my experience. Those MP as a battery are too important than

It isn't, but if you're pulling a shaman out of the context it was created in, it would likely become more important for two reasons: 1. You might not have anything else to do with the magic points and 2. You might not have any other way to do it.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

But its of a piece; that all takes time, and its time that often simply isn't available. That was rather my point; this is only helpful if there's usually time to find and apply the spirits you need to the job, and where the kinds of problems you have permit that sort of time.

Just to be clear, this isn't done during "downtime" but is typically done as part of an adventure. We decide to stop for the evening and the shaman spends time chanting, etc. in front of the fire and heading off into the spirit world to hopefully find some help for an immediate problem: chasing off the wolves moving in towards the camp, negotiating to coordinate an attack on an enemy in the morning, allow us past the point he guards, etc. I don't see how any of this is in any way unusual. In fact, it's exactly what a shaman is supposed to be about, if we're using history/fiction as a guide as to what shamans do. They really aren't about whiz-bang magic in any context I've ever seen them show up in.

It isn't, but if you're pulling a shaman out of the context it was created in, it would likely become more important for two reasons: 1. You might not have anything else to do with the magic points and 2. You might not have any other way to do it.

If you aren't casting spells, you don't need the battery of the fetch quite as much, but you still need the fetch's MP for defense so the trade-off just moves a bit.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

Just to be clear, this isn't done during "downtime" but is typically done as part of an adventure. We decide to stop for the evening and the shaman spends time chanting, etc. in front of the fire and heading off into the spirit world to hopefully find some help for an immediate problem: chasing off the wolves moving in towards the camp, negotiating to coordinate an attack on an enemy in the morning, allow us past the point he guards, etc. I don't see how any of this is in any way unusual. In fact, it's exactly what a shaman is supposed to be about, if we're using history/fiction as a guide as to what shamans do. They really aren't about whiz-bang magic in any context I've ever seen them show up in.

The problem is that the time taken isn't kind, especially for newish shamen; it can take days to find the kind of spirit you're looking for by the book (since its basically an hourly random encounter roll you only have a limited influence over), and you can end up running into a lot of things you don't want to find (and may not be up to dealing with) in the mean time.

Now if you were using a different approach to how you found such things than RQ3, that's a different story, but I'm trying to keep my comments to the material I'm familiar with, not other approaches I'm not qualified to assess.

If you aren't casting spells, you don't need the battery of the fetch quite as much, but you still need the fetch's MP for defense so the trade-off just moves a bit.

If you don't have other sources for spirit protection, you're probably right, but a shaman in an environment where spellcasting isn't common isn't any more at risk than anyone else otherwise.

[soltakss]

The trouble with shamans in RQ2 and RQ3 is that they didn't really work that well.

• The Spirit Plane was ultra-generic and didn't vary according to where you were
• Shamans could only access very generic and bland spirits
• Special or cult spirits were hard to find
• With the exception of some Zola Fel spirits there were no Spirit Traditions written up
• Shamans weren't really given an edge in spirit combat
• Shamans were virtually untouchable magically very quickly
• Shamans didn't have many options for binding/controlling spirits (bind into fetch or bind into enchantment)
• A powerful shaman was about as dangerous as a weak shaman - powerful shamans took theoretically longer to break down but in practice both types were untouchable in spirit combat
• Fetches were treated as virtually another type of allied spirit
• There were no Spirit Guides
• Other shamanic powers, with the exception of laying on hands and self-resurrection, were not used

So, if I wanted to create shamanic rules for BRP then I wouldn't necessarily start from RQ2 or RQ3. Instead I'd start from first principles. I'd list what powers and abilities a shaman should have, how a shaman interacts with his people, how shamanic worship should work, how shamanic people deal with their surroundings and so on. Then I'd work out simple game mechanics to model/mimic those.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

The problem is that the time taken isn't kind, especially for newish shamen; it can take days to find the kind of spirit you're looking for by the book (since its basically an hourly random encounter roll you only have a limited influence over), and you can end up running into a lot of things you don't want to find (and may not be up to dealing with) in the mean time.

Now if you were using a different approach to how you found such things than RQ3, that's a different story, but I'm trying to keep my comments to the material I'm familiar with, not other approaches I'm not qualified to assess.

Ah. I took the table to be a generic random encounters table, not something to be used every time the shaman entered the spirit realm. I tied spirits to locales just like other encounters in the parallel material world, so a shaman with sufficient experience would know roughly where to find certain (individual) spirits: the spirit of the old dryad is always at the same grove of oaks, the spirit of the river is accessible anywhere in the river but more likely at certain locations, etc. Most of this is driven by luck rolls, if nothing else.

However, I'd argue that this is exactly how RQ3 was intended to be run (though I won't argue the point). I don't believe any of the tables in the game were ever intended to be used as gospel, but were there as guides for when you needed something quickly and didn't have the details figured out ahead of time...a lot like you never used the random encounter tables in the old DMG to run everything...just when you literally wanted a random encounter. The same is true of the fumble tables, the professions tables (which at least had to be pruned and crafted for each individual world), the weapons tables (not everything available just because it's in the table), etc.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by soltakss

So, if I wanted to create shamanic rules for BRP then I wouldn't necessarily start from RQ2 or RQ3. Instead I'd start from first principles. I'd list what powers and abilities a shaman should have, how a shaman interacts with his people, how shamanic worship should work, how shamanic people deal with their surroundings and so on. Then I'd work out simple game mechanics to model/mimic those.

I'd actually agree with this in general. I'd also like to figure out a new take on spirit combat. RQ had a wonderful, evocative combat system that was easy to mold to a variety of different tactical approaches. Spirit combat OTOH was long, drawn out, and extremely uninteresting: POW vs. <something> over and over and over until someone breaks. RQIV tried to add something more interesting here, but as I recall it got over complicated. Maybe we should start another thread and figure out a new spirit combat system! (No, the MRQ way of making it all physical combat is not the answer!)

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

Ah. I took the table to be a generic random encounters table, not something to be used every time the shaman entered the spirit realm. I tied spirits to locales just like other encounters in the parallel

Given the specific mechanical influence of the shaman's POW on the results, I'm afraid I can't view it that way; it appears to me it was indeed intended to generally be used for such things, and in any case, something like it was to be used; you can certainly make an argument that it wasn't out of keeping to do a custom tables for certain areas, but it certainly appears that finding specific sorts of spirits was supposed to be somewhat random and time consuming.

material world, so a shaman with sufficient experience would know roughly where to find certain (individual) spirits: the spirit of the old dryad is always

That appeared to already be factored into the rule about POW influence to me.

at the same grove of oaks, the spirit of the river is accessible anywhere in the river but more likely at certain locations, etc. Most of this is driven by luck rolls, if nothing else.

However, I'd argue that this is exactly how RQ3 was intended to be run (though I won't argue the point). I don't believe any of the tables in the game were ever intended to be used as gospel, but were there as guides for when you needed something quickly and didn't have the details figured out

See my comments above; even if true, I don't think it changes my point about the design intent.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

See my comments above; even if true, I don't think it changes my point about the design intent.

No problem. Now should we design a shaman from the ground up, ignoring the old rules, and see where it gets us? I really was serious about spirit combat. The rules are broken, and in fact work very well, but for the amount of rolling that went on it was one of the lease pleasurable parts of RQ to me. (Maybe just doing a single roll, like SB1-4 did is the simplest and best answer.?)

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

No problem. Now should we design a shaman from the ground up, ignoring the old rules, and see where it gets us? I really was serious

Well, I was personally only interested in commenting on the limitations of using the RQ2/3 version, but I'm sure the original poster and others would find it potentially useful.