Old and New Pow gain methods

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

The problem is that being even in the 18-19 range meant that you were pretty much immune to magical attack from mediocre opponents.

That's true, but I don't see it as a problem. If you get up to 18-19, you either trade some in for some really good magic or horde it to be immune to petty magics. It's a trade off, but everyone I've played with would agree that the most economical way to play (in a pure min/max way) is keep POW around 13-14 so you can gain POW to trade in for more magic at a reasonable rate while still having a decent chance at attack/defense.

Also, while 2-4 points might be okay for character who only adventure a few times a year, there's nothing to require that to be the case; with relatively continuous adventuring, it wasn't hard to see people racking up 12 points of sacrificed power in a year, and that got to be a bit much.

Since the whole advance of time is generally background, I'm not sure it really matters in the big scheme of things. However, I suppose a move to having POW checks (as well as skill checks?) being based on time (every season for example) would elevate this. In fact, I was doing something similar in my homebrew game. It has no experience system based on adventures, but simply allows more skills over time (based on age) of the characters and a corresponding drop in physical attributes over time. (Characters were allowed to shift some points around to reflect a loss in a neglected skill for gain in a different skill.) In fact, I always ran downtime for both occupational skills and trained skills this way in RQ/BRP: some number of skill checks per season and some additional ones for specific training. It was much easier than calculating the gains for trained skills via the rules and there weren't any rules for gaining skills per occupation after play started.

[Trifletraxor]

Both rules could actually pretty easily be combined:

"Any win on the POW vs. POW table, as the active or passive part, under stressed conditions, is awarded with a POW gain check, up until a character has reached its normal species maximum POW (18 for humans). After that a POW gain check is only awarded in situations similar to the one stipulated above, where a character has a success chance of 50% or less."

Actually I think I might start using this rule!

[Nightshade]

[quote=RMS;17333]That's true, but I don't see it as a problem. If you get up to 18-19, you either trade some in for some really good magic or horde it to be immune to petty magics. It's a trade off, but everyone I've played with would agree that the most economical way to play (in a pure min/max way) is keep POW around 13-14 so you can gain POW to trade in for more magic at a reasonable rate while still having a decent chance at attack/defense.

[quote]

Sure. But if you're in an environment where there's nothing to sacrifice POW on (which is true of at least of a couple of the BRP paranormal systems--the psychic system comes to mind) its not a choice, just the way the result will end up over time.

Since the whole advance of time is generally background, I'm not sure it really matters in the big scheme of things. However, I suppose a move to having

I know for a lot of people it can end up doing one of two things: 1. Distort the setting because its too easy to ramp up Power, or 2. Make the PCs really odd aberrations because their Power spikes incredibly faster than other people in the setting, depending on whether its assumed the same thing applies to NPCs or not.

POW checks (as well as skill checks?) being based on time (every season for example) would elevate this. In fact, I was doing something similar in my

I don't think the issue comes up as much with skills; even with relatively fast advancement of skill, there's not as much impact and its actually fairly hard to end up advancing grossly dispreportionately to what, say, a rich dillettant who just spent all his time training can do.

The thing with the Power issue is that in settings with no power sacrifice, it quickly makes the PCs juggernauts of resistance (and if mages themselves, attack), and in settings with Power sacrifice it can quickly rack up a lot of functional power (as it did in RQ in many games).

But yes, a frequency limit solves the problem (that's the take RQ: AIG took) but I'm not sure its an ideal solution.

some additional ones for specific training. It was much easier than calculating the gains for trained skills via the rules and there weren't any rules for gaining skills per occupation after play started.

Well, honestly, I suspect the designers didn't really expect PCs to be significantly operating in their original occupations after the start of play.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Sure. But if you're in an environment where there's nothing to sacrifice POW on (which is true of at least of a couple of the BRP paranormal systems--the psychic system comes to mind) its not a choice, just the way the result will end up over time.

OK, potentially dumb question here: would you even be receiving POW checks at all in such a case? Getting POW checks, or not, definitely has to be setting specific or an optional rule because obviously it needs to work different in different genres. I can't think of a reason for even using the standard POW gain rule unless you spend POW on things. Otherwise, force characters to go through standard training of some sort or hand them out judiciously like other stats that are potentially improved through extra-ordinary exertions.

The thing with the Power issue is that in settings with no power sacrifice, it quickly makes the PCs juggernauts of resistance (and if mages themselves, attack), and in settings with Power sacrifice it can quickly rack up a lot of functional power (as it did in RQ in many games).

See above. If you don't want PCs to become (nearly) immune to direct magic attacks and there's nothing to spend POW on, then I'd think it'd make perfect sense to opt out of POW gain roles. In fact, I can't think of a BRP setting were POW gain roles are handed out with regularity and POW isn't also spent quickly...or do like a lot of BRP settings and make all POW gain a 5% option which really slows advancement down. (Didn't most of those allow unlimited POW gains too, so you could end up with POW in the 30s or 40s with an old sorcerer.)

Even in RQ it was a bit broken for some nonhumans. I've mentioned on here before one of my players who acquired an awaken shadow cat allied spirit. They have a maximum POW of 38 in RQIII, so can keep POW in the mid-20s, getting automatic increases, while being able to blow through human defenses at will. That PC let the cat cast all the direct magic, while the PC cast warrior-type spells on himself. It was a nasty combination, especially considering the speed, quickness, and stealth abilities of the cat make it virtually impossible to engage for a human. (Note: I went back to RQII for maximum POW and, while still powerful, it brought the shadow cat back down to some semblance of reasonableness.)

Well, honestly, I suspect the designers didn't really expect PCs to be significantly operating in their original occupations after the start of play.

I suppose I fall under the label of hardcore simulist and just don't conceive of the PCs sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the next "adventure" to come along. Mine are always off doing things that just aren't interesting enough to play out, but it's rarely their "original" occupation. It's generally something more in character, like standard military duty, or guarding a caravan through uneventful events, or studying somewhere (for sages or mages), etc. It breaks my suspension of belief completely if someone simply hops from danger-to-danger without respite.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

OK, potentially dumb question here: would you even be receiving POW checks at all in such a case? Getting POW checks, or not,

If you're a psychic yourself, in psychic combat. If there's a fair number of opponents who can do so, you might even end up in it fairly frequently if you aren't one.

definitely has to be setting specific or an optional rule because obviously it needs to work different in different genres. I can't think of a reason for even using the standard POW gain rule unless you spend POW on things. Otherwise, force characters to go through standard training of some sort or hand them out judiciously like other stats that are potentially improved through extra-ordinary exertions.

If the game had rules for training POW, I'd agree, but at least currently it doesn't.

See above. If you don't want PCs to become (nearly) immune to direct magic attacks and there's nothing to spend POW on, then I'd think it'd make perfect sense to opt out of POW gain roles. In fact, I can't think of a BRP setting were POW gain roles are handed out with regularity and POW isn't also spent quickly...or do like a lot of BRP settings and make all POW gain a 5% option which really slows advancement down. (Didn't most of those allow unlimited POW gains too, so you could end up with POW in the 30s or 40s with an old sorcerer.)

I don't think there's actually too much to spend POW on in the Magic system, but a mage in it would still be getting POW gain rolls by the book; in fact, that'd be the case in any version that had magical attacks but not POW sacrifices.

We saw a fair bit of this in RQ too, as there were characters who had spirit magic attack spells (Demoralize, Disruption, Befuddle) but weren't serious enough mages to know anything they could use to sacrifice magic on (a spirit mage who doesn't know enchantments doesn't really have anything he can even potentially sacrifice POW for).

So I don't think its as tidy as you're presenting it.

Even in RQ it was a bit broken for some nonhumans. I've mentioned on here before one of my players who acquired an awaken shadow cat allied spirit. They have a maximum POW of 38 in RQIII, so can keep POW in the mid-20s, getting automatic increases, while being able to blow through human defenses at will. That PC let the cat cast all the direct magic, while the PC cast warrior-type spells on himself. It was a nasty combination, especially considering the speed, quickness, and stealth abilities of the cat make it virtually impossible to engage for a human. (Note: I went back to RQII for maximum POW and, while still powerful, it brought the shadow cat back down to some semblance of reasonableness.)

That's certainly a problem for any nonhuman with a high POW maximum. Fortunately, there aren't a lot of them that are typically playable as PCs; elves are the worst, and they're at a tolerable level.

I suppose I fall under the label of hardcore simulist and just don't conceive of the PCs sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the next "adventure" to come along. Mine are always off doing things that just aren't interesting

In my experience, they're usually training; if the environment supports frequent adventuring, that's more than enough to tie up their time between adventures assuming they have the funds to do it.

enough to play out, but it's rarely their "original" occupation. It's generally something more in character, like standard military duty, or guarding a caravan through uneventful events, or studying somewhere (for sages or mages), etc. It breaks my suspension of belief completely if someone simply hops from danger-to-danger without respite.

That's as it is, but it hasn't got much to do with how the game--like most games--is played by most people. I have no evidence that most people in most games of any stripe assume more than modest amounts of downtime.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

Both rules could actually pretty easily be combined:

"Any win on the POW vs. POW table, as the active or passive part, under stressed conditions, is awarded with a POW gain check, up until a character has reached its normal species maximum POW (18 for humans). After that a POW gain check is only awarded in situations similar to the one stipulated above, where a character has a success chance of 50% or less."

Actually I think I might start using this rule!

:beetle:

I like it and will propose it to my GM.
By the way, we currently allow POW checks for any win, wether active or passive.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Trifletraxor]

I've started to use it myself now. My players blast through POW on one-use divine and DI's, so a steady supply is needed!

SGL.