Worst fantasy books ever written ?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I've seen lots of people say this and I still think it's a load of crap.
Soldiers come home all the time mentally unhinged because of what they've experienced at war. They see things that are completely outside of normal experience and I really doubt watching several hours of war movies before setting out would have spared them.

I think there is a big difference between seeing your buddies riped in two by machinegune fire and seeing froggy going through your garbage. Part of the problem with Lovecraft was that he had a hard time living in the modern world of the 1920s and things that bothered him, naturally bother his characters. To Lovecraft, the architecture of, oh, New York City, is sanity threatneing, "The vast spires rose to such unnatural heights that a mere glimpse sent my head realling from Vertigo." Heck, Lovecraft might flip out if he came home and found a soldier going through his garbage. He was a unstable, xenophobic recluse.


Yeah, seeing a Deep One might shake someone up, but it is hardly the reality warping experience that it is to Lovecraft.

Now seeing a Deep One tossing a half eaten body into the garbage is a bit more shocking. Yet itnecessary a prelude for a trip to the funny farm. Not unless no one else sees the Deep One.

I'm a bit on thee squeemish side, and yet managed to wrok in a hospital inclduing reguarly working in the trauma ceter, OR, and makinking the occasion trips to the Morgue.

Yes, you do get accustomed to it. And yes while some soldiers do come home mentially unhinged, so do some teachers, pilicemen and truck drivers. The vast majority however, aren't in need of intensie pyschotherapy.

Originally Posted by Zane

I kinda doubt there's gonna be a lot of JK Rowling stuff on the shelves 80 years from now.

I kinda doubt there would be much Locvecraft stuff on the shelves now without CoC. Or that a lot of authors in the horror field considered him a major influence.

As for worst fantasy books written. Well it is mostly subjective. We might be able to be objective on technical points, but as far as style, and story themes go, it is all subjective.

[Simlasa]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think there is a big difference between seeing your buddies riped in two by machinegune fire and seeing froggy going through your garbage.

... and I wasn't really making the two out to be the same...
Just saying, watching war movies doesn't prepare you for war. Watching horror movie doesn't prepare you for monsters.
I worked in a forensics lab with all sorts of body parts and organs... that doesn't insure that I won't wig out if I come home to find my girlfriend's guts scattered on the kitchen floor. The element of surprise and danger plays a big part in how people react.
I agree that MOST people aren't necessarily going to come unhinged over such things... but everyone has a breaking point.

I kinda doubt there would be much Locvecraft stuff on the shelves now without CoC. Or that a lot of authors in the horror field considered him a major influence.

Well, Stephen King and Ramsey Campbell mention him as an influence... definitely Thomas Ligotti... Clive Barker has several stories that have his airs about them... that's a pretty good starting line-up...
I really don't think COC has all that much to do with people knowing about Lovecraft and seeking out his books.
If I ask a random group of folks... lots more of them are going to have heard of Lovecraft than have heard of COC or Chaosium.


Most of the really bad fantasy I've read I can't name... cause I didn't finish it or keep the book.
A lot of it was attempting to out-Tolkien Tolkien... and instead read like someones record of their RPG sessions.

[CthulhuFnord]

If Chaosium never came up with Call of Cthulhu the rpg, I would have. Back in the early 90's I discovered Lovecraft and Roleplaying. I had a good adaptation of the Masque of the Red Death rules when a friend pointed out the pre-existing RPG.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I kinda doubt there would be much Locvecraft stuff on the shelves now without CoC. Or that a lot of authors in the horror field considered him a major influence.

I don't deny the rpg has greatly helped spread his and his friends work. One of the things I love about the gentleman from Providence is the circle of friends and pen-pals he had. Through Lovecraft's work I've found a world of other authors. Robert E Howard and Clark Ashton Smith being my two favorite. Smith's writing btw can make Lovecraft's writing seem positively simple.

[Simlasa]

There was a 'Masque Of The Red Death' RPG?
What, like a game where you were at a party waiting for the plague to strike?

[CthulhuFnord]

Well it was pretty much Ravenloft during the 1890's. There was some big stink in this world's ancient Egypt that unleashed a evil force called the Red Death. It was an interesting game, the first "modern" D&D game I think. A fair amount of it was unfortunatly the same Ravenloft Monster Mash pastiche. Still the rules were decent enough for doing Victorian Horror Roleplaying back then.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

There was a 'Masque Of The Red Death' RPG?
What, like a game where you were at a party waiting for the plague to strike?

I think one of the adventures in the main box set involved that particular party.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I've seen lots of people say this and I still think it's a load of crap.
Soldiers come home all the time mentally unhinged because of what they've experienced at war. They see things that are completely outside of normal experience and I really doubt watching several hours of war movies before setting out would have spared them.
Seeing a rubber/cgi monster on some SciFi Channel crapfest is NOT going to put your mind at ease when you come across a deep one rooting through your garbage at 3am. Maybe you won't go insane... but it will sure as hell shake you up.

Hang on a minute.

You specifically asked me to justify my stated opinion, which I did.

You haven't asked anyone else to justify their opinion.

I smell a little bit of bias here.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

Lovecraft's style isn't to everyone's taste, no... but then neither is Henry James or Stephen King or JK Rowling or James Joyce. I was talking to a high school kid the other day who was complaining how 'To Kill A Mockingbird' is complete garbage...

Style and taste are both highly subjective.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

So by those loose guidelines it's ALL bad in somebody's opinion.

That's the most sensible comment in this entire thread.

[Simlasa]

Originally Posted by soltakss

I smell a little bit of bias here.

Yeah, I've definitely got bias... but that's the nature of the thread... so.

The only reason I jumped on that 'these things won't drive people insane' bit was because I've seen lots of people say that with regards to Lovecraft's writing and it kind of bugs me... I think a lot of it comes out of modern desires to see everything in a bright light and covered in gore (not saying that's your take, necessarily, it just seems to coincide with complaints I see about Lovecraft... 'well, Jack Ketchum is a REAL horror writer!'.
The same sorts of complaints that claim the Blair Witch Project isn't scary because they never show anything.

Besides, seems to me very few of Lovecraft's characters were driven insane anyway.

[seneschal]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

Besides, seems to me very few of his Lovecraft's characters were driven insane anyway.

Oh, they were. They just stopped narrating when they went nuts.

Personally, I think Lovecraft does a wonderful job of creating suspense and has a good grasp of regional dialect. His monsters were unique. On the other hand, he doesn't even try to write dialogue. His atmospheric descriptions of scenery sometimes drag on and on. And he doesn't so much present a plot as pile bit upon disturbing bit. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Although Lovecraft's writings and Chaosium's game can each stand on their own tentacles, they have a symbiotic relationship. People stumbling upon the one tend to find out about and become interested in the other. I knew about the game long before I got my hands on Lovecraft's stories, but it sparked my curiosity. At this point, I've read lots of stories but only played the game once.

[fmitchell]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

The same sorts of complaints that claim the Blair Witch Project isn't scary because they never show anything.

Maybe not the best example. The Blair Witch Project wasn't scary to me because the plot was nonexistent and the sound wasn't clear. (Although I did see it in a theater full of chattering teenagers.) The only reason it was scary to initial audiences was that they thought it was an actual documentary until the actors came forward after the premiere.

[drohem]

I couldn't stand BWP. I hate the shakey cam trick; especially for the full feature. It can be a useful tool when used sparingly and for short bursts, but for the movie it gave me a headache.