The Green (discussion)

[Puck]

I thought it is about time to start a thread to discuss the Green in a little more detail. I am really taken aback at all the interest. A sincere thanks to all. At the beginning I thought that the Green could be a little, finely detailed place where were gms could send their players by gate, boat or spaceship for a little change of pace and an adventure or two but it seems to be growing into a little more than that. I was going to chunk along and add a little to the wiki each night or on the weekends. (I kind of imagined it like a serial or comic series with a little coming out at a time). As it seems to be taking on a life of its own and actually is becoming part of the shared world concept, I thought it would be appropriate to have a place for proto-ideas to germinate and be commented on by all involved before they are actually written in stone. I would love to hear your opinions, additions and comments.

[rust]

As mentioned elsewhere, there are a couple of features I would like The Green
to have, in order to make it possible to "link" it with my science fiction world:

- a nearby Gate, preferably in a flooded cave (because the Gate on Pharos IV
is in a flooded room of a ruined outpost of an aquatic alien race),

- a coastline which is not too densely populated by the natives (because the
spaceships my colonists use land on water, and they would prefer some un-
inhabited coast to go ashore),

- cultures which do not entirely rely on powerful magic (because this would
enable me to treat the magic either as a kind of psionics or as the cultu-
res' religions - "Well, they believe in it, and that it works, but actually..."),

- some kind of a trading center, and perhaps some unique trade goods, like
special woods, pharmaceutical herbs, etc. (because my colonists would most
probably visit The Green's world to trade for "land goods" not available on their
water world - and then other adventures could follow).

These few features, which would probably not be difficult to integrate, would
allow my colonists to discover The Green through the Gate and later visit it
per spaceship for additional adventures - and the Gate could just as well al-
low characters from The Green's world to visit Pharos IV (provided they have
a non-magic method for diving).

Otherwise, I like the Trogods and all that has been proposed for The Green
in the Wiki.

[Puck]

I thought I would begin by taking Soltakss' ideas posted in the Peoples of the Green wiki entry. I believe that this is a good starting place for races, but as they are, I find they are a just a little too cookie cutter d+d (for a while I was not sure whether the whole thing was a bit of a lampoon. I was not to sure about sun mountain either until I read the myths and saw what Soltakks really had in mind). Anyway,

Forest Elves awoke within the Green one day under a hot sun and made their homes here. Some Forest Elves live in villages high among the forkings, moulding the trees as men might mould clay. Others move from place to place, visiting their brethren. Still others live in the deep, dark Green, away from anyone else and killing all who would contact them. They were forced here by the raids of the Grey Elves and they have withdrawn from all who are not kin.

I had originally planned on keeping elves conspicuously absent from the Green; maybe because everyone expects them to be there and partly because they have been so overdone. Evidence that they were once there is all around particularly in the bough-roads. I also planned on having a mysterious, incredibly powerful and old sorcerer (or perhaps a couple) at certain places in the Green kind of like Shelba. One may be the wise man of a village or temple who is always veiled, mysterious, and occasionally acts as an advisor or oracle. There would be non-to-subtle hints that these are actually surviving elves.

To fill the traditional elf-role, I planned on using the Karee, which are goblins but have sort of elven features. Goblins would not always be bad-guys, just a little different and distrustful (lots can be done with the Trogod races).
I would also use a race of men who like soltakss' elves were driven here (through the gate) years ago (only a couple hundred) and had to learn to survive the dangers of the green. I was thinking of calling these men the Freelings, but that is just a placeholder. The Freelings would be the basic tree people of the upper green (kind of elf or ranger like).

If we are going to use elves as a basic race, I would like to see something unique and very different.

[rust]

Well, I think it would be a good idea to at least "rename" the more typical ra-
ces (Elves, Orcs), and I would prefer to see them all as different cultures
of Trogods, with the differences more in their cultures than in their physical
attributes. Forest-living Trogods could replace the Elves, Mountain-Living
Trogods the Orcs.

The only race that gives me a bit of a headache are the dragon-riding, man-
eating lizard people. Unfortunately I have seen such a race a bit too often
recently, and I would very much prefer to see a completely different lizard
people culture for a change, perhaps a peaceful race with a high culture.

[Puck]

As mentioned elsewhere, there are a couple of features I would like The Green to have, in order to make it possible to "link" it with my science fiction world:

I do not think there will be much problem with any of these except maybe:

- cultures which do not entirely rely on powerful magic (because this would enable me to treat the magic either as a kind of psionics or as the cultures' religions - "Well, they believe in it, and that it works, but actually..."),

Hopefully though, even this could be easily adjusted to fit sci-fi. Originally I had planned on a lot of animal control spells which could be psionic telepathy (Trogod especially). Also a lot of wood-based and maybe air magic, definately a form of tree and animal product alchemy.
I really do not know where the whole thing is going though and have very little knowledge of the new BRP magic system.

- some kind of a trading center, and perhaps some unique trade goods, like
special woods, pharmaceutical herbs, etc. (because my colonists would most
probably visit The Green's world to trade for "land goods" not available on their
water world - and then other adventures could follow).

This kind of stuff is a lot of fun. I have been thinking of all kinds of gums and resins(-how about a waterproofing resin), saps and insence. Amber would also be a great trade commodity.

diversion- One of the more interesting things that would work for a fantasy world would be a product like frankinsence. I was thinking that certain areas of the green would produce an insence that would give bonuses to certain types of ceremonies and spells. This insence would be a very hot items in other parts of the shared world.

The trade center is a huge topic and may take a thread of its own, but I am sure there will be at least one. If the Green is as big as the map implies there will probably be many.

[Puck]

Well, I think it would be a good idea to at least "rename" the more typical ra-
ces (Elves, Orcs), and I would prefer to see them all as different cultures
of Trogods, with the differences more in their cultures than in their physical
attributes. Forest-living Trogods could replace the Elves, Mountain-Living
Trogods the Orcs.

This is very close to my original idea although to place the Green into the shared-world may require a little give and take.

The only race that gives me a bit of a headache are the dragon-riding, man-
eating lizard people. Unfortunately I have seen such a race a bit too often
recently, and I would very much prefer to see a completely different lizard
people culture for a change,

I feel much the same, but perhaps Soltakss has something more detailed and cool in mind that doesn't come through in the draft. I have several ideas which I will propose later when I have more time.

[Puck]

Along the great rivers that flow through the Green can be found many villages. Most of these are land-built, or Ground Huggers as those from the Interior say. Some of these are on stilts, others are built into the mud alongside the rivers. These riverine villages are fairly uniform in culture, being descended from settlers who moved along the rivers millennia ago. They fish the rivers, having a sophisticated way of river management, and hunt and gather in the Green near their villages. They trade with those along the river and with the great cities at the mouths of the rivers.

This bit sounds really good (I love the stilts part). I originally thought that the river folk would be a sort of gypsy or nomad living on their boats and trading with the Freelings or tree people at certain points. They would make yearly migrations from the ravines to the Sea. I had a couple stationary settlements on islands in the middle of the river. A couple of other ports would be places where the bough roads cross the waterways. The rivers were big and the tree people would need to come down to river level to be ferried or use boats of their own.

Also, gartooth Trogod would be expert fisherman and sometimes trade and interact with men along the rivers. These seem more like the ones who would be digging into the mud in the bank though.

This is where I would like to propose something and see what people think. I would like to have a form of intelligent swamp or river ape based on the Swamp monkeys of the Congo. Something like this: Allen's Swamp Monkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The problem is that they are an awful lot like Baboons of Runequest ( I always did like them …there was a wonderful picture on one of the worms footnotes magazines..).

I hate using anything that seems so swiped or so closely related to another game though. I would love to hear people opinions. Also how big should they be? The regular size or gorilla size or somewhere in between.

In the past I have called them Mamprusi. They were always at enmity with the goblins because, not only do they like the same fishing holes, but monkeys were too intelligent and refused to make deals with the goblin Totemists or gods at the dawn of time. I had some vague ideas but I never wrote out the myth that detailed the deal between the animals and the Trogod.

Note: (In my old world the Trogod also lost out on the bear totem, its magic was stolen by a tough barbarians after they defeated the Trogod in battle and the bear became a barbarian war totem).
It is difficult staying on a single topic.

[rust]

With a different name and a different culture, I do not think that your Mam-
prusi could be mistaken for Baboons. Besides, "ape races" are common in
many African and Asian legends, they are not tied to Runequest.

As for the size, I would think that somewhere between 120 cm and 160 cm
(standing upright) - slightly smaller than real-world gorillas - would be suffi-
cient. Much smaller, and it would become difficult to imagine them in a con-
flict with the Trogod; much bigger, and they would become "monsters" in-
stead of a potential player race.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Puck

I thought I would begin by taking Soltakss' ideas posted in the Peoples of the Green wiki entry. I believe that this is a good starting place for races, but as they are, I find they are a just a little too cookie cutter d+d (for a while I was not sure whether the whole thing was a bit of a lampoon. I was not to sure about sun mountain either until I read the myths and saw what Soltakks really had in mind). Anyway,

Lampoon? Me? Never!

But, you have to have a balance between what people are familiar with and what people are tired of.

To my mind, elves live in forests (and mountains) and it would be a shame not to use them. However, if people don't like elves then fair enough, no elves. But, I wouldn't use "elves under a different name" instead - you either have elves or you don't.

Originally Posted by Puck

I had originally planned on keeping elves conspicuously absent from the Green; maybe because everyone expects them to be there and partly because they have been so overdone. Evidence that they were once there is all around particularly in the bough-roads. I also planned on having a mysterious, incredibly powerful and old sorcerer (or perhaps a couple) at certain places in the Green kind of like Shelba. One may be the wise man of a village or temple who is always veiled, sniffing wacky tabacee, and occasionally acts as an advisor or oracle. There would be non-to-subtle hints that these are actually surviving elves.

Hidden away, very shy, never seen, very rare and a dying race. I'd also make them pretty nasty to outsiders - killing anyone who encounters them.

Originally Posted by Puck

To fill the traditional elf-role, I planned on using the Karee, which are goblins but have sort of elven features. Goblins would not always be bad-guys, just a little different and distrustful (lots can be done with the Trogod races).

Elves under a different name? You could also have bad, violent ones, orcs under a different name.

Originally Posted by Puck

I would also use a race of men who like soltakss' elves were driven here (through the gate) years ago (only a couple hundred) and had to learn to survive the dangers of the green. I was thinking of calling these men the Freelings, but that is just a placeholder. The Freelings would be the basic tree people of the upper green (kind of elf or ranger like).

I'd think that new settlers would be found on the ground, unless there was a good reason for them to be up in the trees. If you want people living up in the trees then fair enough, but they'd have to have a good reason to live there. Perhaps the ground is too marshy for them to live on and the rivers flood to often for even stilt houses to be effective. Perhaps they were driven to the trees by predators.

Originally Posted by Puck

If we are going to use elves as a basic race, I would like to see something unique and very different.

Don't worry, they would have been.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by rust

Well, I think it would be a good idea to at least "rename" the more typical races (Elves, Orcs), and I would prefer to see them all as different cultures
of Trogods, with the differences more in their cultures than in their physical
attributes. Forest-living Trogods could replace the Elves, Mountain-Living
Trogods the Orcs.

and

Originally Posted by Puck

This is very close to my original idea although to place the Green into the shared-world may require a little give and take.

Sure, why not?

Originally Posted by rust

The only race that gives me a bit of a headache are the dragon-riding, man-
eating lizard people. Unfortunately I have seen such a race a bit too often
recently, and I would very much prefer to see a completely different lizard
people culture for a change, perhaps a peaceful race with a high culture.

and

Originally Posted by Puck

I feel much the same, but perhaps Soltakss has something more detailed and cool in mind that doesn't come through in the draft. I have several ideas which I will propose later when I have more time.

What, you don't like dinosaur-riding lizard-folk? Whever not?

Something like the Green cries out for dinosaurs as it is the perfect habitat for them. If you've got dinosaurs then you need someone to ride them and why not lizardmen?

Did I say dragons in the Wiki writeup? Well, dragons and dinosaurs.

Call them something else, but they are fun and they scare PCs silly.

If you make them into an elder race full of wisdom then they are like Dragonewts, which people don't like because they are Gloranthan.

I'd make them the Guardians of the Green, Keepers of the Ancient Ways, Descendants of the Ancients with a lot of Ancient Technology/Magic in their Cities. Give them a Gate as well, for fun. Make them tough so people won't mess with them, or make them weak with big pets so people don't mess with them. Make them bloodthirsty to scare people away.

But, I was just throwing ideas around.

I could see the Green as being written with just one culture and one set of people which would spoil such a large and diverse area.