Thread: Another Magic World interview...

Whether you agree with my preferred definition of 'High Fantasy' or not, it seems that everyone posting understands what I meant at least. That being said, I'd like to expand and perhaps reply to some of the replies to my post, as well as ask for some clarification as well. I think my core problem is that I want a small handful of books with a unified system that any player could acquire and reference. The fewer books used, the easier it is it seems to me. One reason I like the possibilities of 'Magic World' is it will update and consolidate things a bit. Any player could get the book and have the same resources as the GM and other players. A few folks have suggested using other supplements or house rules from some ones campaign. I have and do such sometimes, but would hope to avoid using any more books than necessary. That is why i would like to see 'Magic World' come as complete as possible.

Rust: The 'Magic' system in BRP is quite powerful I think. I would wish for more spell variety and in truth 'Classic fantasy' provides quite a few spells that can be added easily. I think that there is a supplement called 'The Grimoire' out in the near future that will add quite a few new 'Magic' and 'Sorcery' spells. I hope it will prove to be useful.

nclarke: Resurrection and return of dead characters is not as common in novels, but does happen. That's why I made specific referent to fanatasy *Role-Playing games* as opposed to fantasy in general. I have no desire to try putting together list of novels for comparison. If you wish to disagree, feel free. As for BRP not being suited for killing multiple enemies, I think that the 'Magic' system is quite well suited for it and I've seen it put to good use just for that purpose. The 'Fire' spell can be quite effective...

Vagabond: I apologize if this sounds rude, it is not intended to be. I appreciate feedback and thoughts, which is why I posted in the first place. In regards to Unknown East supplement, I glanced at it once briefly but do not own it. To be honest, I really don't want yet another, different magic system. It sounds like that's what the eastern magic would be. I'd have liked to see integration of RQ style Spirit Magic perhaps as a 'Sorcery' spell. I may well buy the Advanced Sorcery supplement, but I would prefer more 'Sorcery' spells not another system.

Chaot: First.. I love your explanation of Elric's magic! Yes, it did feel like that if you wanted to do anything big, you were having to summon something to do it. Considering that most Sorcery spells last for POW in Combat rounds, that means that a beginning sorcerer will have most spells last a bit over three minutes. that makes a lot of the 'utility' spells rather pointless. Skill wise, I agree that BRP characters start much more skilled. It is the ability to be competent in a variety of areas that made me love BRP. I just wish that would be Sorcerers/Mages felt as talented in spell ability. Now, I DO have a question. Did I understand you to suggest that there are Elric Sorcery spells that will allow you to kill multiple targets at once? It might be possible with 'Guide Earth' from the Bronze Grimoire to crush several targets, but since the earth moves at a MOV 8 and most people can walk at a rate of MOV 10 It would be difficult to really kill someone with this spell. If there are spells in either Elric, the Bronze Grimoire of the BRP 'Sorcery section that allow direct damage, I seem to have missed them. I've found several that will possibly hold someone immobile but none that were direct damage. Any that might do damage directly seemed to be something that you could literally walk away from. Thanks for any ideas and information in advance.

Thanks to all who replied. I was hoping to get more information on what 'Magic World' will be. I don't think it will be all that i would wish for, but it will be worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

Vagabond: I apologize if this sounds rude, it is not intended to be. I appreciate feedback and thoughts, which is why I posted in the first place. In regards to Unknown East supplement, I glanced at it once briefly but do not own it. To be honest, I really don't want yet another, different magic system. It sounds like that's what the eastern magic would be. I'd have liked to see integration of RQ style Spirit Magic perhaps as a 'Sorcery' spell. I may well buy the Advanced Sorcery supplement, but I would prefer more 'Sorcery' spells not another system.

No offense taken.

Advanced Sorcery includes more Sorcery spells, the Unknown East sorcery system, rune magic, necromancy, and herbalism.

You can apply Charlie Seljos' house rules to any spell - and some in the Magic World core book would seem to apply very well to using them against multiple targets (as long as the caster has enough MP).

I also believe it doesn't take much to mke some of the spells that have a range of Touch, and make them Sight instead, perhaps at a larger MP cost. I may have some other houserules/optional rules laying around somewhere, or modifying the aforementioned Seljos rules to apply. Ben is working on a Companion and has asked the dev team about their houserules and options that can be included in a section of the Companion. I may massage Charlie's rules some, and add info about using Sight as a range of effect to spells for an additional cost, and hand them over to Ben and the team for review and possible inclusion.

Ian

I think so too, but the poster's comments make more sense if you put 'D&D' in many sentences.

e.g. "There are no spells" unlike D&D "that allow for much in direct magical assault."
"you need a selection of spells so that a player can feel more like a" D&D " spell caster."
"gave the feeling of a" D&D "Sorcerer, instead of a warrior that knew a few tricks."
"the ability to resurrect players" like in D&D "is a problem I've noted in BRP core books. "
"The ability to bring back those who have died is a staple of Fantasy RPG's" like D&D.

See what I mean. If he wants a game like D&D then BRP may not be for him despite what he's saying.

Originally Posted by nclarke

I think so too, but the poster's comments make more sense if you put 'D&D' in many sentences.

e.g. "There are no spells" unlike D&D "that allow for much in direct magical assault."
"you need a selection of spells so that a player can feel more like a" D&D " spell caster."
"gave the feeling of a" D&D "Sorcerer, instead of a warrior that knew a few tricks."
"the ability to resurrect players" like in D&D "is a problem I've noted in BRP core books. "
"The ability to bring back those who have died is a staple of Fantasy RPG's" like D&D.

See what I mean. If he wants a game like D&D then BRP may not be for him despite what he's saying.

While that may be true to some degree, D&D was not the only game that had offensive/attack spells that directly affected single/groups of targets. And, while I understand (and actually know exactly) why Ben used the Elric! rules for the vast majority of Magic World, it is intended to be a bit more than Elric! with the Moorcockian flavor removed. Which is why Ben included some of the RQIII stuff as well. There is no need to capture the feel of RQI and RQII since there are systems that already do that, and there is no need to capture the exact feel of a D&D-esque RQ either since there is a BRP book that does that as well. However, there is also no need to limit Magic World to the core book that is being released, which is why Ben has assembled a team of people to assist in taking the core and enhancing it further. I have a few of writing assignments for the Companion (Mass Battle rules, Community Ties, Character Backgrounds and possibly Domain Management), as well as some Houserules to provide for the Houserules section should that also become a production item.

Ian

Originally Posted by Greymagius

Considering that most Sorcery spells last for POW in Combat rounds, that means that a beginning sorcerer will have most spells last a bit over three minutes. that makes a lot of the 'utility' spells rather pointless.

Three minutes is a long time in combat mode. Sixteen rounds is a hard slog. Things like Rat Vision, Moonlight and Moonrise can be extended for a while because the cost so little. If I don't mind wearing myself out and I'm a sorcerer with a 16 POW I could ride the rat or keep my glow globe going for about 48 min and be left with 1 mp. Some spells have a different duration built in (Make Whole, for example, is 1d6 hours). But yeah, I agree that these aren't flashy or that impressive. They are just the tiny little bends in reality a sorcerer picks up here and there.

Unfortunately, I think Elric! as written greatly favors bindings into weapons and armor. It's 1 mp for the original spell, 8 to set the attributes, 1 POW to set the binding and however many points left over to determine damage or protection respectively. So, a sorcerer with POW 17 is going to be able to augment their armor by 1d10+1d4. This is better than any return they would get binding a demon.

Say said sorcerer wants to go all in. She gets Brazier of Power for a POW of 16 and 16 stored away. Now she summons a greater demon (1mp for original spell and 9 mp to set the attributes), 1 POW to set the binding and has 21 mp left to spend (leaving 1 mp in reserve so she doesn't pass out). I think that's 4d10+1d2 to weapon or armor. At this point, she'll probably want to cut back on the shear damage and give the weapon an ability or two. Of course, she won't be able to cast spells anymore until she raises her POW back to 16 and she still has to beat the demon on a POWOW. Still, she can't complain about not being effective in combat.

The sorcerer who summons for specific tasks needs the time to put together the demon with the right abilities. There are only so many magic points to go around, so the sorcerer has to make some hard choices when determining what they want. The nice part about negotiation is that it doesn't cost POW points. Unfortunately, it's also something that takes a great deal of time, so you won't often see a sorcerer call up a demon in the midst of combat unless that demon is already bound and you're unlikely to see a bound demon outside of being bound to a weapon or armor.

Corum loosens this up a bit which is why I wish the rules had made it in. The summoning spell (usually 6mp) gives you as it's base 3d8 in all demon stats, a skill at 50%, and two skills at 30%. Things then follow as normal to Elric! except that once a demon has been summoned, a pact has been formed. The sorcerer can summon that demon again at the cost of 1 mp and whatever the pact price the summoner entered into with the demon.

With these rules it makes an incredible amount of sense for the sorcerer to build up a retinue of pacted demons. Also, the sorcerer changes from a combat monster to an incredibly terrifying figure.

got a little carried away there....

Originally Posted by Greymagius

Now, I DO have a question. Did I understand you to suggest that there are Elric Sorcery spells that will allow you to kill multiple targets at once? It might be possible with 'Guide Earth' from the Bronze Grimoire to crush several targets, but since the earth moves at a MOV 8 and most people can walk at a rate of MOV 10 It would be difficult to really kill someone with this spell. If there are spells in either Elric, the Bronze Grimoire of the BRP 'Sorcery section that allow direct damage, I seem to have missed them. I've found several that will possibly hold someone immobile but none that were direct damage. Any that might do damage directly seemed to be something that you could literally walk away from. Thanks for any ideas and information in advance.

No, sorry if I seemed to say that. I don't know of any spells off the top of my head that does that. I could see an argument for writing up a list of 'greater sorcery' spells that cost in the 5-8mp range that could do things like this, maybe.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

Rust: The 'Magic' system in BRP is quite powerful I think. I would wish for more spell variety and in truth 'Classic fantasy' provides quite a few spells that can be added easily. I think that there is a supplement called 'The Grimoire' out in the near future that will add quite a few new 'Magic' and 'Sorcery' spells. I hope it will prove to be useful.

Classic Fantasy did a great job expanding the magic system and I plan on using it side by side with sorcery. I don't have nearly as much experience with 'magic' as I do with 'sorcery' but it seems to me that because magic is skill based you'll see magicians concentrating on doing a few number of spells very well. I need to take a look at the rules again, but I think my approach to making a magician would be to concentrate on an offensive spell, a defensive spell and a gimmick spell or two to ensure I was an effective caster.

Again, I need to review the rules. Still, I see no reason to allow magic and sorcery to live side by side in a game world. They provide a very different feel to magic. I know one of your misgivings is that it's not inclusive in the Magic World series of books, but that is really what the BGB is there to address.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

nclarke: Resurrection and return of dead characters is not as common in novels, but does happen. That's why I made specific referent to fanatasy *Role-Playing games* as opposed to fantasy in general. I have no desire to try putting together list of novels for comparison. If you wish to disagree, feel free. As for BRP not being suited for killing multiple enemies, I think that the 'Magic' system is quite well suited for it and I've seen it put to good use just for that purpose. The 'Fire' spell can be quite effective...

Resurrection, 4 POW, 9 mp
This is a two part ritual. The first part entails a summoning an temporary binding of the deceased's soul. The sorcerer spends 1 mp to reach out through the Spheres, enticing the soul of the departed to return. A further sacrifice of 1 POW opens the way for the journey of the soul. The sorcerer must make a Luck roll for the ritual to be a success.

Once the soul has been returned and temporarily bound, the sorcerer directs the soul the departed's body, expending 8 mp and 3 POW points to rejoin body and soul. The sorcerer must make a Luck roll for this part of the ritual to be successful.

Should all go well, the deceased is now a living, functioning being again with only perhaps a mild desire to consume human flesh... but these things happen.

Originally Posted by vagabond

Mass Battle rules

! Looking forward to seeing those.

I've said before but I'll say it again here. I'm very happy to see Magic World polish up the old Elric! rules.

Thanks to all who have taken time to reply.

nclarke: My game world was originally based on D&D but has been ported into numerous other systems over the years including RQIII and Gurps. I cut my FRPG eye-teeth actually on RQII and the battle magic allowed for a rather good feel for a 'spell-slinger' type character. One thing I've heard that sounds promising about MW is that, unlike Elric, it will have mechanics for allowing a spell caster to use spirits to 'hold' extra spells. Hopefully something similar to the BRP 'Magic' system's familiars and 'Wizards staff' will make it over as well. It seems that you much prefer a more low end magic level where as I prefer more high end. *chuckles* as you might guess from my chosen nom du Net, i prefer 'mage' type charcters


Vagabond: I'm very curious now... you mention some RQ materials being used. Could i dare hope thta some of the RQ battle magic made the port over to 'Sorcery'? I'll also say that Mass Combat rules are something I would be very happy to see as well. I understand the use of Sorcery for the system. I just hope for a wider variety of spells. I'm hoping that the 'Runes' make it over since they were quite clever i think and rather interesting in variety of effects.


Chaot: Thanks again for your reply. In truth, I'm not as conversant as I'd wish with the binding rules in Elric. Looks like i may need to correct that. We all tend to have our ideas colored by previous experiences in a particular system. I have literally seen a 'Stormbringer' campaign where people were binding demons into chamber pots to wipe their nether regions. In the longest running campaign of 'Elric' I played, we ended up on the opposite situation. We were kept always on the move and the GM seemed to want to make certain that you never had the chance to bind a demon or two into service. A world setting where bound demons/elementals/angels are the default mode of magic is interesting actually. It does however require the players and GM to be willing to take time before and after game. Luckily there are limits to how many demons can be bound by one person. I think I'll need to research 'binding' a bit more and see if it might be a back door to getting more of the feel I want.

In regards to using both 'Magic' and 'Sorcery', my Game setting actually tried to use 'Magic' and 'Sorcery' both. "Magic' for wizards and 'Sorcery' for priest. For my players at least, most 'Magic' users trnded to try to master a defensive and an offensive spell and be passing competent at a wide assortment of others. The Priest used Sorcery and were maybe not as flashy but their spells always worked and a priest would usually set up 'Brazier of Power' on a church alter. A wizard might have portability but the priest often had a greater depth of power to draw from.

*Laughs!* OK, Is the resurrection spell in one of the books or is this a house rule created version. It looks rather nice actually. I had used a variation on it that was a bit less heavy on POW loss, but as I've stated before, I normally try to avoid 'house rules', preferring a published agreed upon version so anyone with the basic book(s) can review at their convenience. What you have presented though is quite usable and seems to fit the feel of Sorcery in BRP/Elric.

Again, my thanks to all for your insight and thoughts. Per my reading MW is due out this 'summer' though the definition of summer seems to somehow be at some point between Gencon in August and Christmas. I hope it is sooner, but having waited almost 25 years for the deluxe BRP, I guess a few extra months won't kill me.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

Vagabond: I'm very curious now... you mention some RQ materials being used. Could i dare hope thta some of the RQ battle magic made the port over to 'Sorcery'? I'll also say that Mass Combat rules are something I would be very happy to see as well. I understand the use of Sorcery for the system. I just hope for a wider variety of spells. I'm hoping that the 'Runes' make it over since they were quite clever i think and rather interesting in variety of effects.

No, the Battle/Spirit Magic stuff was in the Magic Book, and will not be in Magic World.

Runes will be in the "Advanced Sorcery" supplement, along with a bunch of extra Sorcery spells, the Demon creation rules, Deep Magic (AKA: "Eastern Magic"), Herbalism, etc.

Also, I have to ask forgiveness if I don't reply to these threads often. For some reason, despite my subscribing to it, I'm not getting notifications of further discussion. I'll try and fix that again, and see if it does anything.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

I have literally seen a 'Stormbringer' campaign where people were binding demons into chamber pots to wipe their nether regions. In the longest running campaign of 'Elric' I played, we ended up on the opposite situation. We were kept always on the move and the GM seemed to want to make certain that you never had the chance to bind a demon or two into service.

Back in the old days of Stormbringer when summoning was a skill there was a fellow sorcerer who pioneered the 'demon doorstop.' Basically tiny mounds of demon flesh. Very versatile. You could use them to hold open doors AND as a paper weight! No way was he going to try a serious summoning until he got his skill up a bit.

I actually tend to keep the Summon Demon spell pretty rare, as it's a bit of a game changer when in play. I do run games with summoners, but tend to keep those PC characters separate from the non summoner PC characters. Sometimes it's fun to walk around with a nuke in your back pocket, sometimes it's nice to be in the dirt with the rest of the rabble.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

In regards to using both 'Magic' and 'Sorcery', my Game setting actually tried to use 'Magic' and 'Sorcery' both. "Magic' for wizards and 'Sorcery' for priest. For my players at least, most 'Magic' users trnded to try to master a defensive and an offensive spell and be passing competent at a wide assortment of others. The Priest used Sorcery and were maybe not as flashy but their spells always worked and a priest would usually set up 'Brazier of Power' on a church alter. A wizard might have portability but the priest often had a greater depth of power to draw from.

I think this is an excellent approach and sounds about like I think it would shake out. I plan on using both Magic and Sorcery in my next game, which is shaping up to be BRP Ravenloft. Sorcery will be for those who's powers come from more infernal sources and Magic will be the preview of the more academic wizard. I have to iron out the details on this yet, but I'm going to let characters dabble in both if they want. It should be interesting to see how it shakes out in extended play. I mean, using this knowledge comes with a price in Ravenloft.

Another thing. This reminds me. I plan on using spell reagents as a minor boost to the wizard's cast skill. I need to hammer out those rules.

Originally Posted by Greymagius

*Laughs!* OK, Is the resurrection spell in one of the books or is this a house rule created version. It looks rather nice actually. I had used a variation on it that was a bit less heavy on POW loss, but as I've stated before, I normally try to avoid 'house rules', preferring a published agreed upon version so anyone with the basic book(s) can review at their convenience. What you have presented though is quite usable and seems to fit the feel of Sorcery in BRP/Elric.

Official's overrated! It's not in a book but if it makes you feel better there is method to the madness. In the Bronze Grimoire there's a Spirit Vessel spell that's kind of like creating a phylactery, and Lure Spirit, which calls out to use a random spirit as an attack dog. Lure Spirit costs 10mp and 1 POW and Spirit Vessel costs 1d8mp and 3 POW. I mashed them. Having it cost 4 POW is also a convenient way of making it available but incredibly unlikely to be used. If you wanted it to be a more common thing, drop it down to 1 POW and add some circumstantial restrictions/prerequisites.

Chaot Again my thanks for you input. I suspect that i would find your games a pleasure to partake of. In honesty my game world is a mess of a bit of everything. I use Magic, Sorcery, Psi and Mutations. To be honest, it tends to be what most people would consider far to over powered. My game style/approach though has always been that my players are the EPIC heroes that truly change the world. Such high powered play does not appeal to many but my players and I enjoy. My style is more Valdemar (per Mercedes Lackey) than Middle-Earth, with a very healthy dose of Anime. Although I run high powered campaigns, I also enjoy lower powered as well. For me, the challenge is to find clever ways to do things.

I admit that the 'Resurrection' looked to have familiar elements. I had looked at the Lure Spirit but had not quite figured out how to get it to the next stage for resurrection. It is quite clever and looks viable as a way to bring some one back. My own in house version was 10 mp to cast 1 permanent POW from caster and 1 permanent POW from person being resurrected, with a Luck roll on the resurrected's part after loss of POW. a 12 hour ritual casting made it a not on the fly process.

Zomben; It's all good. I don't receive notifications either. I am curious now though. If I understood correctly, Magic World would have all the Sorcery spells from Elric and the Bronze Grimoire plus a few additions such as the Lure Spirit spell mentioned elsewhere. I'm curious what the 'Extra' Sorcery spells in 'Advanced Sorcery' will be. Also, I've seen a few samples of magic items. Will there be rules for creating such or is that a 'lost art'? also, there is mention of binding spirits to ask as addition INT for 'holding' spells. Is there the possibility of something like familiars and Wizards Staves as per BGB's 'Magic'?

As always, thanks for everyone. I may not always agree but I always try to listen and give consideration.