Alcohol in Legend

So I've been attempting to put together rules for alcohol in Legend, because it has come up in my current campaign that players are putting people on alcohol IV drips and other such unusual uses of alcohol.

I'm hoping for some feedback, and I will try to refine what I've got from there. I have the base mechanics for alcohol overall, but I dont have quick tables for different types of alcohol calculated yet.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks guys.

Alcohol in Legend - Downloads - Basic Roleplaying Central

At the moment, it looks impressive but isn't really that useful.

I see that your players like to put people on whiskey drips, which explains the Alcohol by Injection table, but that wouldn't be that common.

What it really needs, in my opinion, is:

1. A list of common alcoholic drinks and their effects (I don't know what 10 ounces of alcohol relates to in the real world, for example.

2. What is the cumulative effect of drinking alcohol?

3. Does Resilience have an effect?

4. Ideally, you would want some worked examples of alcohol consumption.

Remember the drinking contests in RQ3 Vikings? They were easily usable and fun. For a RPG, you need something similar. If you can make it realistic as well, all the better.

At the moment, it looks impressive but isn't really that useful.

I see that your players like to put people on whiskey drips, which explains the Alcohol by Injection table, but that wouldn't be that common.

What it really needs, in my opinion, is:

1. A list of common alcoholic drinks and their effects (I don't know what 10 ounces of alcohol relates to in the real world, for example.

2. What is the cumulative effect of drinking alcohol?

3. Does Resilience have an effect?

4. Ideally, you would want some worked examples of alcohol consumption.

Remember the drinking contests in RQ3 Vikings? They were easily usable and fun. For a RPG, you need something similar. If you can make it realistic as well, all the better.

Hmm. Havent looked at RQ3 Vikings. I'll look into that though.

Injecting Alcohol may be uncommon, but it could happen, and the effects would work. I would also use that table if someone put alcohol in other places its not meant to (the membranous walls there go to the blood stream without the liver filtering anything).

1. Yes. I definitely need to make a list to speed things up.

However, it should be fairly easy to convert. as its just percentages. I agree that in a finished product, having more common drinks already figured out would save time.

10 ounces of 100% alcohol is equal to 17 shots of 40% whiskey/rum/vodka, 50 ounces (~1.5L) of 20% port, 100 ounces(~3L) of 10% table wine or very strong 10% beer, 200 ounces(~6L), or 17.5 standard north american size bottles of regular 5% beer, or 300 ounces (~9L), or 26.25 bottles of really weak 3% beer.

They should cover any type of alcohol of any strength, but having some pre-done would be a time-saver.

2. That is what the two bottom tables are for. Number of 100% Strength Drinks taken, and Chest HP show you your % in Tolerance Level, which tells you which stages of effects you're making going to suffer; and that % in Tolerance level is the Potency you roll against for your Resilience (1 roll for each stage). While the rolls dont make the effects go away, they let you ignore the strongest one for 30 minutes, in a cumulative fashion.

So if your tolerance level is 65%, you'd roll Resilience 5 times. Each time you succeed, you get to ignore the worst effect of the alcohol, in reverse order.

So if you got 4 successes, you'd only take exhaustion, and be at a -10 to all actions. If you got 3, you'd have exhaustion and fever, and you'd be at 50% skill, -10, to all actions. If you got 2, You also take the effects of Nausea, and if you got 1, you get confusion as well. If you failed all the tests, you're passed out.

I can see how examples would be needed though, now that you mention it.

3. That example above should show how resilience works.

As for Duration, the little formula there shows the speed the alcohol leaves your system, and again, you just look at what range you're in on the table and it tells you which effects have worn off after so much time.

I think it should be fairly realistic, but at the moment it probably does involve too much math, and some sample drinks and rules examples certainly couldn't hurt.

And thinking of it now, an example/explanation on how mixing different drinks of different strengths and waiting a while and then drinking more works, just to make sure its understood, couldn't hurt.

With that bit of explanation, do you have any criticisms of how I mean for it to work? I'm not 100% confident in how the implementation of the Resilience rolls should work. Should the action penalties from Exhaustion and Fever apply?

Edited May 7, 2012 by Darkholme

Injecting Alcohol may be uncommon, but it could happen ...

I suspect this is a bit beyond the average Legend setting, the hypodermic needle

is an invention of the 19th century, and an injection with medieval technology in-

struments would almost certainly result in rather nasty complications.

Oh?

I didn't realize needles were that new. Didnt they sometimes use needles to drain puss and whatnot?

Didnt they sometimes use needles to drain puss and whatnot?

The closest they had to hollow needles were small tubes, but their diameter

was much too big for an injection, and since they did not know much about

bacteria and desinfection any attempt at an injection would most probably

have resulted in an infection, which could even have become fatal because

of the lack of antibiotics. Of course, magic could change all that, but histo-

rically an injection under medieval conditions would have been a bad idea.

So... Comments on the Mechanics?

I am somewhat sceptical, because in the real world the relation between the

amount of alcohol a person has consumed and the symptoms the person suf-

fers depends on a multitude of factors and is impossible to reduce to any sim-

ple formula. While the body mass index helps to calculate the alcohol concen-

tration in the blood, the consequences of this alcohol concentration vary wi-

dely. A well known factor which makes a simple relation between alcohol and

body mass and resulting symptoms questionable is food (e.g. when, how much,

how fat did the person eat ...), but there are also subtle differences in the in-

dividual biochemistry which influence how fast the alcohol is neutralized. So in

the end a blood alcohol concentration which is sufficient to kill Person A can

result in only comparatively mild symptoms for Person B. This is of course im-

possible to simulate with game mechanics, even a random "fudge factor" is un-

likely to work well, and therefore I prefer a referee decision based upon the

specific situation to a formula. But this is just my opinion, if your system does

work well for your campaign it is of course fine.

I am somewhat sceptical, because in the real world the relation between the amount of alcohol a person has consumed and the symptoms the person suffers depends on a multitude of factors and is impossible to reduce to any simple formula. While the body mass index helps to calculate the alcohol concentration in the blood, the consequences of this alcohol concentration vary widely.

Hmm. alright, this is true to some extent or another, there are other factors to consider, but a simple formula can give a decent approximation, if well tailored to the task.

Certainly more accurate than just handing it over to DM fiat.

A well known factor which makes a simple relation between alcohol and body mass and resulting symptoms questionable is food (e.g. when, how much, how fast did the person eat ...),

Also True. Perhaps modifiers in onset time based on food eaten?

but there are also subtle differences in the in dividual biochemistry which influence how fast the alcohol is neutralized. So in the end a blood alcohol concentration which is sufficient to kill Person A can result in only comparatively mild symptoms for Person B. This is of course im possible to simulate with game mechanics, even a random "fudge factor" is unlikely to work well,

Well, currently it factors in CON+SIZ. However you're right, there is also the specific genetic traits that determine how a single person handles alcohol, like how effective their liver is. I'm not sure it's impossible to handle, but perhaps saying that's represented as part of CON is insufficient?

I can recall a time a few years ago that I got really drunk(I usually don't drink that much in a night). According to the app I mentioned, my BAC had me in the "Danger of Coma" range (.37%), but I only had the effects of the "gross motor impairment" stage (.13%-.15%). I'm not a big guy; I'd probably only have a 9 or so in SIZ, but with this representation, I'd have to be making up for that with a high CON, which is more abstract.

and therefore I prefer a referee decision based upon the specific situation to a formula. But this is just my opinion, if your system does work well for your campaign it is of course fine.

At the end of the day it doesn't need to be 100% perfect for a tabletop RPG, it just needs to be close enough to be believable. A formula is going to help the referee make more consistent and better informed decisions - particularly if it somehow considers the specific situation. And that's kindof the point, right? If this were a computer-aided game, making it substantially more complicated and trying to include more variables might be more important, because you never need to worry about the time it takes to add stuff together or multiply some numbers; the machine does those things just fine. But with people and dice, I can see that it should be simplified down if you dont want the game to go really slow.

For me a pet peeve is inconsistent GMing, and I always prefer when the GM has guidelines to show him what the right call to make is about how something works. "Just make a ruling on the fly" is almost never satisfactory to me unless the GM is somehow internally consistent, in which case he's likely keeping track of previous rulings for comparisons. I try to be accomodating of it as a player even though it bugs me, but as a GM, I want a bit more consistency. If I want something to be a part of the game, I want some mechanics to represent it. Otherwise I would be willing to play in online forum games without rules & woulndt need a game system.

So with that out of the way, what I'm trying to say is:

As far as I'm concerned, any halfway decent mechanical system is going to represent something better than GM Fiat, simply by being more consistent between occasions.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Darkholme

So with that out of the way, what I'm trying to say is:

As far as I'm concerned, any halfway decent mechanical system is going to represent something better than GM Fiat, simply by being more consistent between occasions.

Agreed and if you can make it easily usable and fun to use as well as being fairly accurate then it would be a good set of rules.

Agreed and if you can make it easily usable and fun to use as well as being fairly accurate then it would be a good set of rules.

Can we start with the size of a dose (allowing some and spare the precise metric/imperial conversions)?

Suggest (because we can all relate by personal experience) 1 DOSE = 1/2 litre beer, or 0.25-0.3 litres wine, or 0.1 litres strong spirits

Application - Ingestion (really, I think injection calls for specialist rules or GM fiat for an unusual situation)

Onset time - 15 minutes (I'm guessing)

Duration - 2 hours (likewise)

Resistance - Resilience. Adjust Difficulty according to normal rules scale depending on whether you have eaten well, or are starving, or whatever

POTENCY - 40, but +10 cumulative for each extra dose downed within the onset time, and the drinker must reroll for each new application within the duration, again adding + 10 Potency per dose to what's already int he system.

Effects - Put your thoughts here, but as a discussion starter

Potency roll fails - no effect

Potency roll succeeds, Resilience succeeds, no effect, but Potency remains to be added to that of the next drink.

Potency succeeds, Resilience Fails, -10% to skills (including resilience). If you are using Passions - add +10 to the Passion. Potency remains as above.

Potency succeeds, Resilience Fumbles - Puke, pass out, do something embarrassing (scale to Potency already on board). Hangover assumed.

Remember you roll for each dose, and the effects are cumulative.

Not playtested, obviously, this is off the cuff, but similar to my drug use rules. But If I drink 5 pints within 2 hours, and have resilience 50%, succeed/fail/succeed/fail/fail - I'm now -30% on skills, +30% on Passions, Potency in system is now 90% and the next pint will see me home to bed. If I make it. Maybe a bit harsh...but I'll be fine in an hour...no, really, I'm fine to drive...honest.

Hmm. Your approach seems to be along the same lines as the S&P Article. I was hoping to get something more with more believable effects, that could Ideally be generalized to be able to add more drinks of varying strengths on the fly.

I can see mine needing some revision to make it more easily usable, but I'm not confident in this approach. I feel that while it's simplistic enough to be more easily usable than what I originally put up, its simplistic to the point of not being realistic enough for me.

The effects in particular. The ones I mentioned match up well with the actual effects of alcohol, and include the potential for coma or death.

Now that I've seen the S&P Article, this approach, and what I started with, I'm more convinced I have the right idea, Though the presentation needs work and I need to make it so less calculation is needed. I'll try to take the comments in this thread into consideration, and I'll make a revision and put it up when I get the chance.

I've been using Legend's Fatigue Levels to represent Intoxication. Having just read the Signs & Portents 45 article I might go in for using its Intoxication Levels, but the rest of those rules are an unneeded complexity. I'd also extend penalties to all skills, not just those related to DEX and INT.

For drinking contests I pit the opponents Resilience scores in opposed tests.

Hmm. Your approach seems to be along the same lines as the S&P Article. I was hoping to get something more with more believable effects, that could Ideally be generalized to be able to add more drinks of varying strengths on the fly.

I can see mine needing some revision to make it more easily usable, but I'm not confident in this approach. I feel that while it's simplistic enough to be more easily usable than what I originally put up, its simplistic to the point of not being realistic enough for me.

The effects in particular. The ones I mentioned match up well with the actual effects of alcohol, and include the potential for coma or death.

Now that I've seen the S&P Article, this approach, and what I started with, I'm more convinced I have the right idea, Though the presentation needs work and I need to make it so less calculation is needed. I'll try to take the comments in this thread into consideration, and I'll make a revision and put it up when I get the chance.

In fairness - because there's a system in Legend for poisons - and I see no reason to have an alternative one for alcohol rather then just use what's there. The poisons rules give you a bunch of characteristics (application, potency, onset time, duration etc) for which you as GM can put in your own stats and effects. If you can describe those - rather than ask the system to do that for you - you can fill out the sheet. If you wanted to you could do it for each drink (Troll Lagers, Elf Ciders) rather than for alcohol per se. Is there a reason your alcoholic effects need to be more 'realistic' than those for other poisons...or would you want a subsystem for cobra venom as well to achieve a more clinically realistic outcome?

Hmm. I gave a response to your post yesterday, but its now gone. If it was deleted, I dont have the slightest idea why.

In it I said that I did use the legend system, but did add a few more details to it, and the only parts I really changed were different potential effects for different sized or multiple doses, and the layout was changed so that many drinks of different strengths could be presented as a single poison, since they are all in fact the same poison at different concentrations.

I said I wouldn't mind seeing something similar for your example with the cobra wither - a chart showing several varieties of cobra, and if applicable, different effects for different dose sizes/concentrations in the same way.

I suppose the fact that in a few places I used a character sheet statistic as part of the effect instead of just numbers and dice is unusual too, in that larger tougher characters can hold more liquor before it affects them, without even taking resilience into the question. Perhaps it mutes the role of the resilience skill too much or something. If thats the case, then that's a complaint I can see needing to be addressed. If not, the use of Chest HP was a good single number to represent both size and toughness. But Perhaps I should have tied it to the resilience skill or tied it directly to Con+Siz instead, they were the other possibilities I saw there.

So while I do see that I made a couple small departures from the sample poisons, I don't think its a bad thing (though I suppose it is a slightly more expanded/robust poison system), but I do think my original post was unwieldly and involved too much math, and the same effect could (and should) be presented in a way thats easier to use at the table - and potentially a slightly simplified version of the same would be worth doing with duration and the amount you can drink for the effects to hit you being standardized across creature sizes and constitutions. I prefer the added realism of it taking more poison to drop an elephant than a housecat, but maybe others dont like that it adds the extra steps.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Darkholme

Hmm. I gave a response to your post yesterday, but its now gone. If it was deleted, I dont have the slightest idea why.

The forum was moved to another server, and some posts got lost

because of this.

The forum was moved to another server, and some posts got lost

because of this.

Okay. No Worries.

Did not realize about the move.